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Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
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Going strong Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
OP, I've read your first post here with interest, and compassion for the pledge you're in. So, I was of course extremely (and unfavourably) impressed by the comprehensive list of defects exhibited by your girlfriend. Then, on top of that, you told us later on than she is from EE.

So in my opinion, you have little hope. She has too many various and glaring defects, and comes from a tough, occasionally cruel, EE culture, which will harden her even more. Especially if she's EE-but-not-Russian : no salvation then. The only "mentally top-quality" women remaining in EE in 2020, are almost always (non-Muscovite preferably) Russian women. Non-Russian EE women were a thing in like 1998, now they're a trap.

Thus I would respectfully advise to stay until the child is born and healthy, and then find a more suitable and dignified wife, while all along sending money to the ex-gf (so that your child has his needs covered). Go see your child once a week if you can, do some sport activities with him or museum outting with her, it will quite certainly be positive.

As other posters noted, it will be much better than raising a child in a house full of infighting and rage (until the child is swept away back to Plzen or some by the EE mother).

And before people reply that "it's not the good Conservative way to do things", know that many good and strong cultures in History, had the children educated by the women until they were like 12 or 13. Before that, a father is for physical protection (of family and State) and financial help, that's about it. I don't think small children need fatherly love, they need fatherly protection and monetary help, and fatherly guidance when old enough to learn the important things (patriotism, religion, economics, weaponry, languages).
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 09:53 PM by Going strong.)
02-04-2020 09:42 PM
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thedream Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 09:40 PM)FullThrottleTX Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 09:16 PM)thedream Wrote:  The complication with co-parenting with her is she is a EE citizen and I am a USA citizen. I would not want to live in her EE shit hole for any more than a few months a year. And I wouldn't want to make her a US citizen unless she was actually my wife! My child will be a US citizen however and I am sure that will benefit them (as opposed to being a EE citizen). Though who knows what the US will be like when the child is 18?

What does she want?
Sounds like this is a one-sided decision...

Of course she doesn't want to live in EE either. She would love to have me pay for everything, whether she is my wife or not. But I am not going to deceive the US government that she is my wife when she is actually my co-parent or risk going through a divorce with her in USA with its crazy laws. She says she would sign a pre-nup but who knows on what terms at this point.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 09:45 PM by thedream.)
02-04-2020 09:43 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
I would observe that you're not married, and haven't made any vows yet.

Also, her behaviour might change during the pregnancy.

If you firmly believe that she's going to reneg on her vows, it's your right to refuse the marriage ceremony. Think hard about what you're doing here; don't get married because somebody put a shotgun against your head. But perhaps she might turn into a woman worth marrying.

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02-04-2020 09:51 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 09:42 PM)Going strong Wrote:  So in my opinion, you have little hope. She has too many various and glaring defects, and comes from a tough, occasionally cruel, EE culture, which will harden her even more. Especially if she's EE-but-not-Russian : no salvation then. The only "mentally top-quality" women remaining in EE in 2020, are (non-Muscovite preferably) women. Non-Russian EE women were a thing in like 1998, now they're a trap.

Thus I would respectfully advise to stay until the child is born and healthy, and then find a more suitable and dignified wife, while all along sending money to the ex-gf (so that your child has his needs covered). Go see your child once a week if you can, do some sport activities with him or museum outting with her, it will quite certainly be positive.

As other posters noted, it will be much better than raising a child in a house full of infighting and rage (until the child is swept away back to Plzen or some by the EE mother).

And before people reply that "it's not the good Conservative way to do things", know that many good and strong cultures in History, had the children educated by the women until they were like 12 or 13. Before that, a father is for physical protection (of family and State) and financial help, that's about it. I don't think small children need fatherly love, they need fatherly protection and monetary help, and fatherly guidance when old enough to learn the important things (patriotism, religion, economics, weaponry, languages).

She is Ukrainian. From Kiev, the capital (so the Moscow of Ukraine).

Your arguments are good. Unfortunately at this point it's all theory to me since I have never gone through this. I see your points about history and that makes sense!

Seeing once a week would be doable if I was to live in Ukraine but I will almost do anything (almost) to not live there long term ever again. I hated it there for anymore than a month or two. Of course I have already realized I may have to sacrifice this preference to be near to my child.

So what happens when my gf eventually finds another dude? That's guaranteed to happen - she is attractive. That could get really ugly and emotional if my child now thinks of that dude as more DAD than me. I mean I can only have so much control over something like that.

Before I give people here the impression that she's a total wreck, I should list her good qualities (which are not few) to be fair:

- Takes good care of herself
- Strives to take care of me and expresses genuine concern for my comfort
- Cooks, cleans, and takes care of home stuff
- Not a gold digger (EE girls from Kiev can be horrible)
- Has family values, she wanted a family (although she is not God fearing)
- She is generally polite, though not 100% of the time
- Only 2 sexual partners before me, both in LTRs
- Loves children and animals
- There are others but these are the main ones which come to mind

It is these reasons above why I thought I had a good girl and why I wasn't extra cautious about getting her pregnant! These factors made it extremely deceiving.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 10:21 PM by thedream.)
02-04-2020 09:59 PM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
Your response to the physical coercion concept and having reduced it to "hitting" fundamentally reveals about you why your wife does not respect you as a man.

I'm not advocating for hitting anyone. I physically discipline my dogs for example without hitting them but when I hear someone equate physical discipline with "hitting" then I know I'm dealing with someone who has either been abused in the past or has had such a lack of physicality in their life that they don't understand that vast grey areas exist between hands-off and bashing someone.

Not all women require to know inherently that their man is capable of defending her against a saber-tooth tiger in the primitive sense, but some do, and yours evidently does. Such women identify this trait in their men (or the lack of it) by shit-testing them until there are no options left but for him to "take her in hand" or quit and leave (saving her the trouble of leaving herself).

I suggest you hit the gym, build some body mass, raise your T levels, undertake combat sports, put a punching bag in your house and take your anger out on that such that she can reconcile the concept that you are not a simp who'll be mowed down the moment an enemy tribe wanders into your territory.

As I said, not all women need this but many do, and apparently you've chosen a woman who's closer to those primal needs than many others.

God demands of Man responsibility. God demands of Woman vulnerability. These are their curse and blessing alike. Libertianism is to Man as Feminism is to Woman.
(This post was last modified: 02-05-2020 01:40 AM by Leonard D Neubache.)
02-05-2020 01:39 AM
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Post: #56
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 09:59 PM)thedream Wrote:  It is these reasons above why I thought I had a good girl and why I wasn't extra cautious about getting her pregnant! These factors made it extremely deceiving.

Exactly my calculus a couple of times with my UA LTR (ended this month). It could be literally me writing these posts (I wouldn't consider abortion either and we had a few close calls). Right down to the feeling of tension in my stomach around her. I'm pretty sure, for me, that stemmed from her block headedness. She was physically amazing but mentally very low quality (not exactly stupid just low quality).

Rooshvforum members in EE take note!
02-05-2020 08:07 AM
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Post: #57
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
Hi OP.
I think you should stay with this girl. Most of what you described in your initial post is typical female behaviour and a lot of girls you meet will have some of these qualities up to a certain point. Learn to deal with it.

Furthermore, you not only impregnated her but you went all the way to proposing and buying her an expensive engagement ring ? How does that happen by accident ?

Lastly, do not forget you have a responsibility as a christian men to love your wife : "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her"
(This post was last modified: 02-05-2020 08:57 AM by hervens.)
02-05-2020 08:55 AM
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Post: #58
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-05-2020 01:39 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Your response to the physical coercion concept and having reduced it to "hitting" fundamentally reveals about you why your wife does not respect you as a man.

I'm not advocating for hitting anyone. I physically discipline my dogs for example without hitting them but when I hear someone equate physical discipline with "hitting" then I know I'm dealing with someone who has either been abused in the past or has had such a lack of physicality in their life that they don't understand that vast grey areas exist between hands-off and bashing someone.

Not all women require to know inherently that their man is capable of defending her against a saber-tooth tiger in the primitive sense, but some do, and yours evidently does. Such women identify this trait in their men (or the lack of it) by shit-testing them until there are no options left but for him to "take her in hand" or quit and leave (saving her the trouble of leaving herself).

I suggest you hit the gym, build some body mass, raise your T levels, undertake combat sports, put a punching bag in your house and take your anger out on that such that she can reconcile the concept that you are not a simp who'll be mowed down the moment an enemy tribe wanders into your territory.

As I said, not all women need this but many do, and apparently you've chosen a woman who's closer to those primal needs than many others.

I don't completely understand what you are saying but I would like to.

I wasn't advocating for hitting my wife or any member of my family.

I don't understand the reason why she doesn't respect me. This is the most important part I would like to get clarity on. If you can provide specific advice on how to improve that, I would appreciate it.

I go to the gym regularly. My T levels are checked every year. They are in the normal range for a man my age but I'm not an expert on this. Perhaps there would be a benefit for them being higher. My last check was in October 2019 and the results were 699 ng/dL for Total Test and 13.3 pg/dL Free Test.

How exactly are you using physicality to discipline your dogs for example? Are you using your body as a strong barrier which they cannot pass through -- in the case when they are not allowed to go into a certain room? What other ways?

Do you have specific advice on how I can improve my dominance in my relationship? I agree with you that this may be the main reason why she is acting out so much.
(This post was last modified: 02-05-2020 10:09 AM by thedream.)
02-05-2020 10:04 AM
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Post: #59
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
OP

This was the reason for my previous question. I have a fair amount of experience with EE women and Ive often written on the forum that they require an advanced level of "game". (Im in an LTR with one now)

Leonard is spot on. These women come from a culture that is brutish when it comes to the male female dynamic. It goes beyond the traditional man is "head of household" and "women is homemaker" roles we used to have in the West. Men are seen as either czars or simps by women with little in between.

Their shit tests are next level and they abhor weakness. Any weakness.

But these women can be some of the most beautiful, feminine, loyal and family oriented. But like thoroughbred horses they require a higher level of understanding of their female psyche in the context of their culture. A deeper dose of strength is required to finesse the dynamic.

Again Leonard is dead on. You dont need to directly threaten her but she needs to "fear" you at an almost primal level. I dont mean physically per se (although an almost implied sense of that is the nuance required). If she fears you (or the loss of you) then that will supplant her other deep fears (abandonment, boredom, social shame, etc) and sooth the other subconscious issues that are making her act out.

You seem like a thoughtful sensitive guy. The fact that your here looking for answers clearly indicates this.

"Evan" is a thoughtful sensitive guy. But Tatiana cant really appreciate Evan unless she knows "Mongo" resides in the same body.

Mongo is the guy who will tear off Tatianas clothes and give her a full cave man jungle fuck without saying a word as well as beat the shit out of another man that even thinks about touching her or her child.

She needs to know about Mongo on the desire front.

And she needs some dread.

I dont know exactly how you might go about "correcting" the situation as I dont know you and your history with women and specifically her but hopefully enough "conceptual" info will plant the strategic seeds that allow you to tailor a tactical plan.

I hope some of the seemingly esoteric stuff above makes sense.

_______________________________________
- Does She Have The "Happy Gene" ?
-Inversion Therapy
-Let's lead by example


"Leap, and the net will appear". John Burroughs

"The big question is whether you are going to be able to say a hearty yes to your adventure."
Joseph Campbell
(This post was last modified: 02-05-2020 01:13 PM by PapayaTapper.)
02-05-2020 01:02 PM
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thedream Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-05-2020 01:02 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  OP

This was the reason for my previous question. I have a fair amount of experience with EE women and Ive often written on the forum that they require an advanced level of "game". (Im in an LTR with one now)

Leonard is spot on. These women come from a culture that is brutish when it comes to the male female dynamic. It goes beyond the traditional man is "head of household" and "women is homemaker" roles we used to have in the West. Men are seen as either czars or simps by women with little in between.

Their shit tests are next level and they abhor weakness. Any weakness.

But these women can be some of the most beautiful, feminine, loyal and family oriented. But like thoroughbred horses they require a higher level of understanding of their female psyche in the context of their culture. A deeper dose of strength is required to finesse the dynamic.

Again Leonard is dead on. You dont need to directly threaten her but she needs to "fear" you at an almost primal level. I dont mean physically per se (although an almost implied sense of that is the nuance required). If she fears you (or the loss of you) then that will supplant her other deep fears (abandonment, boredom, social shame, etc) and sooth the other subconscious issues that are making her act out.

You seem like a thoughtful sensitive guy. The fact that your here looking for answers clearly indicates this.

"Evan" is a thoughtful sensitive guy. But Tatiana cant really appreciate Evan unless she knows "Mongo" resides in the same body.

Mongo is the guy who will tear off Tatianas clothes and give her a full cave man jungle fuck without saying a word as well as beat the shit out of another man that even thinks about touching her or her child.

She needs to know about Mongo on the desire front.

And she needs some dread.

I dont know exactly how you might go about "correcting" the situation as I dont know you and your history with women and specifically her but hopefully enough "conceptual" info will plant the strategic seeds that allow you to tailor a tactical plan.

I hope some of the seemingly esoteric stuff above makes sense.

Yes. I understand what you are saying. Maybe not 100% but I conceptually get it.

The thing that doesn't make sense to me is I have demonstrated Mongo in various ways. Perhaps I am not 'advanced' but I can guarantee you I have demonstrated the kind of thing you're talking about it in more ways than single events once in a while.

That is why I am so confused and troubled by this situation.

I would happily have it so that it's 100% my fault. That way I would know there is a chance I can actually, with time, improve everything.

I'm not so convinced. But how can I know? How can I know for sure that all of the problems we are experiencing are my fault and only my fault? What is the test?

I would be delighted if the problems we are experiencing are entirely my fault and my responsibility to resolve. I repeat: that way I could take the time to learn exactly what I need to do to establish dominance over her. It will not happen overnight and I'm certain it will be difficult. But it's within the realm of realistic possibility.
02-05-2020 01:39 PM
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Post: #61
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-05-2020 01:39 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  I suggest you hit the gym, build some body mass, raise your T levels, undertake combat sports, put a punching bag in your house and take your anger out on that such that she can reconcile the concept that you are not a simp who'll be mowed down the moment an enemy tribe wanders into your territory.
I agree I would benefit from combat sports. While I have always regularly exercised, I have devoted minimal to moderate time to this activity. I have done martial arts on and off but never regularly and not in the last 5 years.
(This post was last modified: 02-05-2020 02:16 PM by thedream.)
02-05-2020 02:07 PM
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Post: #62
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
Is there an overarching circumstance that triggers her tantrums?
How do you usually respond to her when she goes into her histrionics?

_______________________________________
- Does She Have The "Happy Gene" ?
-Inversion Therapy
-Let's lead by example


"Leap, and the net will appear". John Burroughs

"The big question is whether you are going to be able to say a hearty yes to your adventure."
Joseph Campbell
02-05-2020 02:45 PM
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tr1cky Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
I would like to point something out. I imagine when the OP got with this EE woman he thought she was a "unicorn" and they were going to live their dream far away from the corrupt and degenerate western society. She probably cooks, cleans, and told him everything he wanted to hear.

Now he is realizing he has the exact same problems with this EE unicorn as he would with a western woman.

I wanted to point this out for all the lurkers that think they can leave the west and find a loyal traditional woman that makes them happy and never gives them problems. The purpose of being with a woman is not happiness. It's not loyalty. It's not to have a slave to cook, clean, suck, and fornicate. The only purpose of marriage is it (statistically) gives the best outcomes for children and it's the best way to create a stable society.

Marriage (LTR for that matter) is sacrificing self for children and society. Dont expect someone to make you happy.
(This post was last modified: 02-05-2020 08:01 PM by tr1cky.)
02-05-2020 08:01 PM
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Post: #64
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-05-2020 08:01 PM)tr1cky Wrote:  I would like to point something out. I imagine when the OP got with this EE woman he thought she was a "unicorn" and they were going to live their dream far away from the corrupt and degenerate western society. She probably cooks, cleans, and told him everything he wanted to hear.

Now he is realizing he has the exact same problems with this EE unicorn as he would with a western woman.

This is true, to a degree. Before I met her I certainly had a lot of idealism about EE women and starting a family with them. But after several LTRs with them, I realized that they had many of the same problems as Western women.

With her in particular, there were red flags immediately which I ignored because of a lack of insight and admittedly self control. Pure ignorance is even a better way to put it. I saw the red flags, I verbalized them to myself, but it was easier to stay comfortable and continue on, and that is what I did. Had I known THEN what I know NOW, then I would have acted differently and politely ended the relationship with her. Anyway - that's pointless to even discuss because so many life events would be different if we had the knowledge then which we have now.

(02-05-2020 08:01 PM)tr1cky Wrote:  I wanted to point this out for all the lurkers that think they can leave the west and find a loyal traditional woman that makes them happy and never gives them problems. The purpose of being with a woman is not happiness. It's not loyalty. It's not to have a slave to cook, clean, suck, and fornicate. The only purpose of marriage is it (statistically) gives the best outcomes for children and it's the best way to create a stable society.

Yes, your position here is strong. The only counter I have is if the wife is mentally unstable and refuses to improve herself this can be damaging to the children and the husband. So yes, her purpose may not be there to be your slave and make you happy but she also shouldn't be a terrorist to you or the children.

(02-05-2020 08:01 PM)tr1cky Wrote:  Marriage (LTR for that matter) is sacrificing self for children and society. Dont expect someone to make you happy.

There is true wisdom in what you say here.
02-05-2020 11:05 PM
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Post: #65
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
I agree, certainly there are scenarios where divorce is the only viable option. If the person you have to deal with is actively engaging in sabotage it would likely be better to divorce. The risk is high so you better be sure that is the best option. Not everything can be saved.
02-06-2020 01:42 AM
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Leonard D Neubache Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
To get you started, you need to be physical with her in a dismissive way as though she's your property. You slap her ass playfully just a little too hard and laugh when she gets bitchy about it. The moment she says something you get the sense is leading into a shit-test (we all know that tone of voice) you poke her in the ribs and tell her "don't even fucking start with me". If she starts being catty in public you put you arm around her and pull down the edge of her pants so that she freaks out about being publicly embarrassed on anything other than her own terms. If she storms off then you let her go and enjoy your time alone

The bottom line is that you cannot allow her to control the rules of engagement. You have to imagine her as a child (albeit not in certain sexual ways obviously). How would you respond if your child started having a tantrum in public or disrespecting you in your own home? Would you attempt to have a respectful argument with an emotional teenager? If you did, what do you think your chances of success would ever be?

Do not allow her to escalate. Remember the phrase "this conversation is over".

Maintain your levers of power financially. Ensure for the sake of discipline that she understands she's making requests of you, not demands.

She will make requests simply to push boundaries.
"I need you to take out the trash"
---"Sure, later."
"But it needs to be taken out now!"

How would you respond to this?

Most men will answer "why". They have already fucked up. They don't understand that her engagement with them has nothing to do with the trash and the urgency of which it must be removed. This is entirely about making a demand and seeing whether they can push for it to be filled immediately. My wife is lovely and even she used to do this (though obviously she had no idea why, this is pure instinct for them). You will note that she will make demands of you not when you are unoccupied but precisely when you are focused on something other than her.

For this reason you need to learn as a reflex to short circuit her demands by doing them under your own timeline or on your own terms.

An example of a correct answer for the bin request is "I'm busy now, but it's on my radar. Get back to me if it's not done by tomorrow".

If she starts up on it then you're going to tell her "I'm not interested in an argument but if you like we can cut to the make-up-sex."

Beyond that, it's:

[Image: xRf.gif]

Does this sound exhausting? It can be. Here's the good news. Once you establish yourself as indomitable then the shit-tests begin to reduce in number until they virtually disappear. As I said before, the worst relationships are the ones where the man can bring himself to combat the woman but doesn't have quite enough gumption to put her in her place for good. What you end up with then is perpetual shit-test hell.

If you rise above her and maintain that presence then in time she'll be eating out of your hand. That's what domesticating a lesser beast requires. Both the iron fist and the velvet glove. Of course there are no guarantees. I don't know this woman personally nor what's damaged her (if anything) in the past. But I can guarantee you that if you want to subdue her (as you are obligated to, being the father of her child) then this is the path forward.

Your ancestors would have just pimp-slapped her when she got lippy and that would speed up the process x10 but that's not a safe option these days so you have to play a longer game.

God demands of Man responsibility. God demands of Woman vulnerability. These are their curse and blessing alike. Libertianism is to Man as Feminism is to Woman.
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2020 02:18 AM by Leonard D Neubache.)
02-06-2020 02:16 AM
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Post: #67
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
A few things to consider, focussing on things not discussed much above:

Child raising -
You don't have to be married to raise a child anymore. You were vague about the problems with the mother - is it drug use, criminal activity, or something else? Potentially, having someone like that raise your child would be worse than alternatives.

We live in a female-dominated society. You cant criticize women. But a man can raise a child. Nancy Drew, the fictional detective, was raised by her father and housekeeper after her mother died. Lots of kids are raised by grandparents, older siblings, etc. and have been forever - you just don't hear about that in our society because of the emphasis on women. You probably have relatives who could help you with the child, and if not there is daycare, church members, etc. Don't confuse your fear about raising your child with some sort of directive that you enter a bad marriage.

Bad Marriage
Again, you are vague but it sounds like if you do get married, there is little chance that it will be a good marriage. I think a lot of folks offering advice have never been married. Advice like "everything will be OK as long as you work at it" is not only unhelpful, but its dangerous. The fact is that a marriage is a partnership. No matter how much effort you give, its meaningless if the other person is going in the opposite direction. 200% times 0% is zero. 200% times -50% = -100%.

Also, a bad marriage has other effects. First, the stress may kill you, seriously, and if you are stressed or sick or dead, you can't be there for your child. Second, the stress is unhealthy for your child. Third, you and your wife should model healthy behavior and intereactions for your child; its not good if you are constantly arguing. The child would be much better off in single parent households than in a bad environment.

Finances
Sure its scary facing the idea of raising a child. But paying alimony and child support only makes that worse. Getting married triggers financial obligations that you owe to your wife, even if she does nothing to deserve them. As a general rule of thumb, expect to pay 1 year of alimony for every three years of marriage, and this is especially true the longer the marriage lasts. Talk to some men who are paying alimony, how unfair the system is, how often they get to see their kid, etc. Marriage only adds to your problems in my opinion. Every benefit you could get from marriage you could get without marriage.

Alternatives
If the prospect of being a parent are too daunting, adoption is always an a good option.

Conclusion
You have already made one mistake by participating in an unplanned pregnancy. Don't compound the problem by getting married.
02-06-2020 07:09 AM
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Polyhistor Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
Some time ago, I was in a similar situation (though, luckily, it finally turned out that there was no pregnancy). Being Catholic, I asked a priest for advice - a priest whom I know to be very traditional and rather strict. He STRONGLY advised me against marrying this woman. Of, course, I would have to fulfil my legal obligations, and possibly more than that. I would have to do my best to stay in contact with the child and I have been required to engage in the education as much as necessary (there was reason for doubt if the mother would be able to handle a child).
However, the mistake/sin has already happened. It would do no good to add a marriage under false pretences as a second sin. Furthermore, there is never an obligation to marry anybody. Cohabitation, of course, would also be no improvement.
Of course, these ideas are unrelated to any practical experience. But I am sure they reflect true Christian teaching.
02-06-2020 09:31 AM
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Post: #69
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
I don't disagree with what Hypno has said, but keep in mind that in many jurisdictions if you live together for as little as two years you are already in a common-law marriage, and even if not activist judges can declare you financially "coupled" based on their whims essentially. Also, what are your chances of getting sole custody of the child? There essentially is no such thing as a "single father".
02-06-2020 11:33 AM
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Hypno Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
I’m not recommending you live with her either. You could have the child 100% or every other week.

And yes there are single fathers I know several of them.

As daunting as being a single father may be, trying to make a marriage work with someone who is not pulling in the same direction as you- which several posters in this thread have recommmended- it’s not that daunting. The former is possible, the latter is not.
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2020 11:59 AM by Hypno.)
02-06-2020 11:56 AM
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Post: #71
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
Having gone through something similar other than the fact the woman in question wasn't even very physically attractive, I'd say an existential crisis like this forces you to peer deep in your soul and decide who you are and what you stand for. You can see that in some of the differing advice, some I agree with, and some I don't.

In my case, I would have felt a crushing amount of shame to not marry my ex because having children out of wedlock (aka bastards) still matters to me, even if it no longer carries much stigma anymore. It matters to ME. I predicted going into it that the marriage probably wouldn't last longer than a few years before I'd have to pull the ripcord, and I knew what I was in for as far as divorce, custody battle, alimony, but I signed up for it anyway out of a sense of responsibility.

I wanted to be able to look back after the inevitable divorce and say that I at least made an effort even if she wasn't going to. To look at it strategically in terms of trying to save me money and stress would feel too selfish on my part. Being a parent is all about getting beyond your own selfishness. That's why it's so life-altering. Bad parents are almost always selfish people who can't make that transition into thinking beyond their own desires.

And in retrospect, I know I made the right choice. That doesn't change the fact that it was hell enduring the three or so years I was in the marriage before it became intolerable. But I walked on hot coals for a reason and like one of the other posters, I was lucky enough to win full custody. But it wasn't just full custody but it turned out to pretty much eliminate my ex from my life entirely. I don't know if it ever could have worked out that way if my daughter were raised in bastard/babymama fashion.

That doesn't mean it was smooth sailing after I got custody as being a single father is harder in some ways than being a single mom, not the least of which was never getting any child support coming MY way. The system is still stacked against men overall. But when you're in this sort of a situation you try to find the least bad outcome as there are really are no good ones.
02-06-2020 12:44 PM
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Post: #72
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-06-2020 12:44 PM)questor70 Wrote:  Having gone through something similar other than the fact the woman in question wasn't even very physically attractive, I'd say an existential crisis like this forces you to peer deep in your soul and decide who you are and what you stand for. You can see that in some of the differing advice, some I agree with, and some I don't.

In my case, I would have felt a crushing amount of shame to not marry my ex because having children out of wedlock (aka bastards) still matters to me, even if it no longer carries much stigma anymore. It matters to ME. I predicted going into it that the marriage probably wouldn't last longer than a few years before I'd have to pull the ripcord, and I knew what I was in for as far as divorce, custody battle, alimony, but I signed up for it anyway out of a sense of responsibility.

I wanted to be able to look back after the inevitable divorce and say that I at least made an effort even if she wasn't going to. To look at it strategically in terms of trying to save me money and stress would feel too selfish on my part. Being a parent is all about getting beyond your own selfishness. That's why it's so life-altering. Bad parents are almost always selfish people who can't make that transition into thinking beyond their own desires.

And in retrospect, I know I made the right choice. That doesn't change the fact that it was hell enduring the three or so years I was in the marriage before it became intolerable. But I walked on hot coals for a reason and like one of the other posters, I was lucky enough to win full custody. But it wasn't just full custody but it turned out to pretty much eliminate my ex from my life entirely. I don't know if it ever could have worked out that way if my daughter were raised in bastard/babymama fashion.

That doesn't mean it was smooth sailing after I got custody as being a single father is harder in some ways than being a single mom, not the least of which was never getting any child support coming MY way. The system is still stacked against men overall. But when you're in this sort of a situation you try to find the least bad outcome as there are really are no good ones.

BIG THANKS for speaking about your story.

This is pretty close to why I've decided to stick to Option 1 (stick it out) over Option 2 (end relationship).

Option 1 gives the chance for things to work out. Even if that chance has low odds, it's still a chance. It's a business decision and being in a marriage itself is like running a business. Option 1 allows me to stop doing business with my partner in the case that things get too bad and she starts to severely damage my life or the life of the child.

Do I think there is a chance she will magically turn into a super moral humble church going mother? Highly unlikely.

Do I think there is a chance she will be a good mother and somewhat improve her emotional outbursts and BS drama - Yes, I do believe there is a chance of that.

What I am doing to protect myself is a prenuptial agreement. I am still researching the specifics on this and I would like to know if anyone here has experience with that?

Specifically - I want to know if I can get a "BULLETPROOF PRENUP" where she cannot do anything to cause me or the child harm in the future. I want to know if there can be a prenup where we both agree alimony is out of the question. I do believe she would sign that based on a. conversations I have had with her explaining we will definitely have a prenup and b. she has very little materialistic aspects in her negative tendencies.

We currently live in Central America (Mexico). She will only be legally married to me in USA if I decide to move us there and that is not in the plans yet at this point. I decide where we will live. Now if I decide to move to the USA (a highly likely event at some point) - of course she will be legally married to me in America / a citizen. This is unavoidable since she has to be legally married to me to enter USA and stay there.

@Hypno - you've made a lot of strong points and I understand you. My frame right now is damage control with the possibility of any outcome. So that's leaving the opportunity for things to improve/not improve. Time will tell. Another forum member made a wise suggestion to write out what must be the case in 5 years, and it that's not executed (on both her and my part) - then terminating the relationship might be the only option.
(This post was last modified: 02-06-2020 01:09 PM by thedream.)
02-06-2020 01:03 PM
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Post: #73
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
My two cents:

Go with her to a therapist and try to improve your relationship. It's the therapists job to correct negative behaviour in stubborn people. If this still does not improve the relationship for staying together with her at least she will improve in raising the child and maybe talk less shit about you when you will separate ways.

Your child will be okay if you split but your future ex will not talk bad about you or do manipulate shit to the kid

Wish you all the best
02-06-2020 01:20 PM
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thedream Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-06-2020 02:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  To get you started, you need to be physical with her in a dismissive way as though she's your property. You slap her ass playfully just a little too hard and laugh when she gets bitchy about it.

I do that on a regular basis. I love that.


(02-06-2020 02:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  The moment she says something you get the sense is leading into a shit-test (we all know that tone of voice) you poke her in the ribs and tell her "don't even fucking start with me". If she starts being catty in public you put you arm around her and pull down the edge of her pants so that she freaks out about being publicly embarrassed on anything other than her own terms. If she storms off then you let her go and enjoy your time alone

I've done the pants thing in public to make her self conscious. But I haven't tried the "Don't even start this shit" one yet. I understand the overall concept here.

(02-06-2020 02:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  The bottom line is that you cannot allow her to control the rules of engagement. You have to imagine her as a child (albeit not in certain sexual ways obviously). How would you respond if your child started having a tantrum in public or disrespecting you in your own home? Would you attempt to have a respectful argument with an emotional teenager? If you did, what do you think your chances of success would ever be?

Well here is where I need some help since I have never been a father but I am already asking myself questions on what to do to handle when kids are disrespectful.

Leonard - do you have kids? What exactly would you do in that situation with your kid?

(02-06-2020 02:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Do not allow her to escalate. Remember the phrase "this conversation is over".

Yes this is one of the lines I want to tape to my wall or mirror where I shave in the morning.

(02-06-2020 02:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Maintain your levers of power financially. Ensure for the sake of discipline that she understands she's making requests of you, not demands.

My finances will always be separate and superior to hers. No problem there.

(02-06-2020 02:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  She will make requests simply to push boundaries.
"I need you to take out the trash"
---"Sure, later."
"But it needs to be taken out now!"

How would you respond to this?

I would either completely ignore it or laugh at her and say: "I've got some work to finish and then I'll get to it later."

(02-06-2020 02:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  For this reason you need to learn as a reflex to short circuit her demands by doing them under your own timeline or on your own terms.

I understand you.

(02-06-2020 02:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  If she starts up on it then you're going to tell her "I'm not interested in an argument but if you like we can cut to the make-up-sex."

Now, that's good stuff!

(02-06-2020 02:16 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  Does this sound exhausting? It can be. Here's the good news. Once you establish yourself as indomitable then the shit-tests begin to reduce in number until they virtually disappear. As I said before, the worst relationships are the ones where the man can bring himself to combat the woman but doesn't have quite enough gumption to put her in her place for good. What you end up with then is perpetual shit-test hell.

If you rise above her and maintain that presence then in time she'll be eating out of your hand. That's what domesticating a lesser beast requires. Both the iron fist and the velvet glove. Of course there are no guarantees. I don't know this woman personally nor what's damaged her (if anything) in the past. But I can guarantee you that if you want to subdue her (as you are obligated to, being the father of her child) then this is the path forward.

Your ancestors would have just pimp-slapped her when she got lippy and that would speed up the process x10 but that's not a safe option these days so you have to play a longer game.

Do you think it's possible I can actually win and have the shit tests stop forever? Or do the shit tests just get less frequent?

Re: ancestors slapping. Did that actually work? Or did their women find other ways to shit test them and make their lives hell?

Thanks for all your advice.
02-06-2020 01:22 PM
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Post: #75
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-06-2020 12:44 PM)questor70 Wrote:  And in retrospect, I know I made the right choice. That doesn't change the fact that it was hell enduring the three or so years I was in the marriage before it became intolerable. But I walked on hot coals for a reason and like one of the other posters, I was lucky enough to win full custody. But it wasn't just full custody but it turned out to pretty much eliminate my ex from my life entirely. I don't know if it ever could have worked out that way if my daughter were raised in bastard/babymama fashion.

I'm glad it worked out for you.

Yes, the social pressure is a consideration,but its also the default programming. I just wonder if it worked out for you despite getting married first, or because you got married. Because really that is what OP is asking - should he marry the mother of his child.

He hasn't gone into too many details about her. I have known men whose wives turned out to have mental and emotional problems, drug problems, or crime problems like shoplifting and check fraud. (These were well above average guys with options, these women conned them). So consider whether marrying this woman is enabling her problems and worse for your child.

Also, ending a marriage and getting custody is difficult, time consuming, and expensive. Questor70 makes it sound like its not.
02-07-2020 05:18 AM
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