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Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
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Feyoder Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
Your story has at least helped solidify a decision I've made not to date or be sexual with a woman I wouldn't marry and stay with for the rest of my life (and then why not just wait until after?). All that angst and unhappiness for the sake of the 10 seconds you feel good after satisfying your lust. Such a bad deal.
02-04-2020 11:12 AM
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Post: #27
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 11:12 AM)Feyoder Wrote:  Your story has at least helped solidify a decision I've made not to date or be sexual with a woman I wouldn't marry and stay with for the rest of my life (and then why not just wait until after?). All that angst and unhappiness for the sake of the 10 seconds you feel good after satisfying your lust. Such a bad deal.

I am glad my situation has enlightened you with this wisdom. I agree.

(02-04-2020 09:22 AM)La Águila Negra Wrote:  About your statement that children fare best in a two parent household: of course, you are right. A healthy two parent household that is. Healthy in a traditional way but also healthy in a inter-personal way.

I personally grew up in a household where my parents, despite hating each others guts, decided 'to stay together for the kids' I am telling you mate, don't stay together at all costs. It just ain't worth it. Everybody suffers in such an environment. You'd be fooling yourself if you think the kid will benefit from living in a dark and loveless place where his mom and dad have stopped communicating /are fighting all the time.

This is exactly my main fear in staying to together for the kids. Yes, I will do everything I can to make things work but I only have so much influence on her. Currently it's limited. But I'm going to do what's needed to improve that.

(02-04-2020 09:31 AM)the-dream Wrote:  If you're going to leave her, leave her before the baby knows what is going on. The child will be much more damaged if you leave them after they have become accustomed to having you together compared to if you were just never there in the first place.

I understand 'why' you would say this and it sounds logical but in life is that actually true?

(02-04-2020 09:35 AM)redbeard Wrote:  Meanwhile, there’s a strong possibility that you get married and things work out between you and the fiancée. She can’t be that bad. After all, you liked her enough to knock her up. There must be SOME chemistry in the air.

This is exactly what I am hoping for. I pray for the possibility that everything will work out positively. If Option 1 is terminate relationship and Option 2 is do everything to stay together, only one of those options can be done after the other has been fully trialed. Option 1 will always be BAD but it's a last resort if Option 2 goes horribly wrong over the next years. It doesn't work the other way around.

(02-04-2020 05:10 AM)St_Johnson Wrote:  Maybe you can collect evidence if the kid is not safe and take the kid away from her when it's a bit older? Not ideal but you might be out of options .
OP I wish you well , I'm going to pray for you brother.

I sincerely appreciate your prayers and understanding.

(02-04-2020 08:33 AM)Serie A Wrote:  It sounds to me like most of her problems relate to emotional immaturity, as if she is doing certain things to get a response from you, or to establish some kind of 'superiority' in the relationship.

The mere passage of time could be the solution here, but you may be able to speed things up by consistently doing the following:

•Don't react emotionally, or take her quirks too seriously. This will just encourage her negative emotions.

•Respond to her with kindness. After a while, it should get quite difficult for her to get angry with you.

•Show affection in unexpected ways. This could help emotionally stabilise her.

•Generously reward the things that she does do well (cooking, cleaning etc.).

Do the above four things for at least one month. Then please report back to us.

Whatever you decide, I would not be too hasty. This lady is carrying your child. That is not a minor thing. There are countless men out there who can only dream of being in your situation, believe it or not.

Best of luck!

Yes this is exactly correct - she is insecure inside herself so she does everything to gain superiority. It's very predictable behavior. My problem is I haven't been able to crack the nut on how to deal with her behavior. I have tried different approaches, including some of the wisdom in your bullet points and it doesn't seem to work in a sustainable way.

In her mind - to be submissive is to disrespect herself. These are her exact words. So she will listen to me as the head of the household but she will not be submissive, or her understanding of submissive, which is entirely negative. So it's her whole outlook on this dynamic that I see as the problem. And that's extremely difficult to change.

Regarding submissiveness, I am curious if any other men have experienced this: do you find it's difficult to love a woman who is not submissive? It's almost to me as if she is missing something that's essential to a healthy ideal of a woman. I have never been able to figure out if this is just some ideal I cooked up in my head or if I just never met the rare ideal sweet submissive girl. I don't mean doing house chores or cooking meals. I mean being truly submissive to her husband in every aspect of her life. It's an overall outlook on life which creates an atmosphere in the household.


(02-04-2020 08:39 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  In regards to the OP, a lot of the stuff you listed is generally typical female behavior when the man in her life is not assertive and dominant enough. Granted some of it is over the top but the root cause as you've tentatively admitted yourself is that she has never had proper men in her life.

If you do your part then you don't have to worry that she's going to be like that forever. Like training a shelter dog, if you put in hard work early then the rest of your life is much easier. The most poisonous relationships are generally the ones where the man has the will to argue but not to dominate. Dominance over a female in your life is kind of like getting a rolling start to get over a hill. If you don't apply enough dominance then no matter how high you get you still end up back at the bottom the hill day after day.

I've never faced divorce or being estranged from my kids but my advice is this. You have to lay down the law and if she bails on you then that ultimately settles it. As long as you're not being a spiteful bitch and actually maintaining dignity and composure when you set down what's what then you're doing your part and if she goes off the deep end then that's on her.

So now what you need are control levers. I'll give you your first one. If she loves her instagram then that's her weakness. The next time she starts having a tantrum then get out your phone and start recording it. Tell her that's strike one. By strike three her misbehavior gets posted online.

The traditional solution to that kind of extreme dysfunction is no longer legal in the West unfortunately.

Dominance of her is an extreme challenge. I have tried so many different ways both soft and hard to get this and nothing has worked. I will keep trying to improve this.

Do you have more specific advice on how I can achieve this?

By traditional solution which is no longer legal you mean physical action I assume? See I do not believe that is right. I wouldn't hit my dog or cat. So I would not hit my wife or child. It's not as simple as that of course and there is a lot of physical behavior modification in the animal kingdom. But I feel very strongly against any hitting of children.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 11:41 AM by thedream.)
02-04-2020 11:38 AM
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RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
Don't choose to make yourself unhappy the rest of your life. You only have one life and eventually you'll crack and have a midlife crisis. Being in an unhappy relationship isn't great for the kids either. If it's too late to abort, do joint custody and be a great dad when you have the kid.
02-04-2020 12:21 PM
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RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 12:21 PM)gringoed Wrote:  Don't choose to make yourself unhappy the rest of your life. You only have one life and eventually you'll crack and have a midlife crisis. Being in an unhappy relationship isn't great for the kids either. If it's too late to abort, do joint custody and be a great dad when you have the kid.

I understand your point about eventually cracking. I'm highly concerned about that.

The problem with raising the child with joint custody is that it's a complicated living situation.

I don't want to live in her Eastern European country. I've tried many times and it's one of the most depressing places on earth. I don't want my child living there either.

So I would have to fight to get full custody. And I don't know what my 'odds' are of that as I haven't even began to think about that mess. Alternatively I would have to move her and the child to where I am. This is is something I haven't fully processed.

I have the "advantage" of being a US citizen. She is not. The child will automatically become a US citizen once I register that I had a child is my understanding.
02-04-2020 12:55 PM
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debeguiled Offline
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RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 11:10 AM)thedream Wrote:  I have prayed every day for help from God. The clearest insight I have at this time is that I must do everything for the health of the child.

So start here.

Ask yourself which would be better for the health of the child? If it means staying in her country, that may only mean for now, until after the child is born, and not necessarily a life sentence.

I agree with a lot of what Leonard says, and it is important for her to know what you expect of her, although in this case it sounds like laying down the law too harshly might lead to an abortion, so you might have to take a more subtle approach.

In my experience, answers to prayer don't lay out the whole plan fully formed, they only tell you what to do next, and have faith in where it will lead.

One of the things I have learned about God over the years is that he is a pretty clever dude, and seems to have a handle on human psychology.

Notice that if you put all of your emphasis on the health of the child, you have unceremoniously removed the one thing that women use the control men: the well being of the child.

She can't use that on you if that is what you are using on her. (Of course, you won't be using it as a power play like she would, you will really mean it.)

Sentiments like, "It isn't about us anymore, it is about our child" can be used to great effect to get her to change her behavior and make sacrifices, and it bypasses the usual contrarianism of the female automatically doing the opposite of what the man wants, because you aren't thinking of yourself, you are thinking of the child, and how can she go against that in good conscience?

This is my sense of the direction you might go in response to how your prayer was answered, of how you might put into practice what God is hinting at.

If you really and truly start structuring your life around the best interests of the child, this will give you a lot of (earned) power in the relationship. What is junk food or a facial compared to bringing a life into the world and nurturing it? This may indirectly shame her to think less of herself and prepare for the future.

You can lay down the law as Leonard says, only it is soft power because you are truly thinking of the best interests of the child, so you can discuss with her what is best for the child, and then she can have a temper tantrum, and you can say, "Yeah, making changes is hard," validating her feelings, and then carrying on with the plan.

She would look pretty stupid complaining about you to her friends saying, "I hate him. He cares so much about the baby."

She is trying to turn you into a piece of velcro, looking for blame and criticism that she can stick to you and make things your fault. Unfortunately for her, you are actually an conscientious, enthusiastic, expectant father.

You are a piece of Teflon.

Ideally then, you will have the needed justification for trusting your own authority since it will all be in service of the child.

That way, if things turn around, you can marry her, and then move where you want.

At least the child will be born.

Worst case is she realizes that she has no desire for the sacrifices and responsibilities of motherhood and leaves you full custody, probably insulting you and calling you a pussy on the way out, and goes back to her party life. But so what?

You'll have your kid.

Obviously, it was your prayer and only you know how to act on the answer. The best the rest of us can do is some brainstorming and moral support. Let us know how it goes.

“That sig BTW is a very asinine anti-family anti-parent quote. You live in a country where 40% of children grow up without a biological father, yet somehow “the greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents”? Sorry but this is fruity Boomer nonsense.”

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02-04-2020 01:31 PM
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Dr. Howard Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
OP, here is an anecdote from my own life.

My girlfriend and I had a very volatile relationship, breaking up, getting back together, arguments, alchohol etc. One day she regretfully announces she is pregnant. She was anti-abortion, I was pro. I lost that battle. I thought she had done it on purpose as a way to trap me (wrong, there was a recall on her lot of birth control, which rendered it ineffective). I also made sure that the kid was mine (DNA test). Needless to say, our relationship was even worse during the pregnancy.

The kid ended up coming VERY early, my girlfriend and the kid were both hospitalized, the kid for 2 months. That event turned us both to God, toned us down and set us straight. What happened was we stopped working against each other for our individual wants and instead started working together for the kid and to help each other. We got married and its been 10 years since now and we are very different, much more caring and understanding of each other.

On the other hand, when I was younger I did things the 'right way' and got married and later had a kid, part of having the kid was kind of a last ditch effort to appease a nagging wife. The pregnancy only made it worse. We divorced even before the kid was born. She continued to be awful but with each year that passes the kid grows older and more independent and her grip of control grows less. Now that he's a teenager, about the only interaction I have with her is to send her a child support check, the rest of the interaction is he and I. The kid definitely has some emotional problems but is an excellent student, athlete and is well mannered.

Short story is, you won't know how having a child will change your life.

Regarding dominance/exerting control. Your fiancee/girlfriend will be weak and vulnerable as the pregancy progresses and after child birth. That is your opportunity. Don't supplicate her during that time, be a leader instead

Why do the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? Psalm 2:1 KJV
02-04-2020 02:03 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
You are not going to 'crack'. Your kid needs you too much for that to happen.

Its easy to focus on the baby for the next few years, making any problems you might have with her, soften slightly. Things weren't great between my wife and I, but little things - like seeing her hum while breastfeeding, with a smile on her face, or the way the baby's eyes lit up when she would snuggle him - certainly softened me.

Then there are the ways that a child needs dad. Not every second weekend, or Thursdays after work, but RIGHT NOW. Nothing will get you moving faster than a 4am "DADDY!!!!!" from your kids room. You might not think it matters, and that a kid would just call mom, but it does matter. How will a kid learn what commitment is when they see you a few days a month. And then you meet a nice, charming young girl and decide to spend a couple weeks away even though its your turn to care for your kid. Devastating. That innocent little kid is going to think its their fault, no matter how many therapists tell them differently. Even my 4yo makes me call and say I am on my way home so he can be sure to wait for me, running out with hugs and stories about his day. If I don't make it back when he thinks I should, he lets me know.

You will see quick that kids are never at ease unless all their loved ones are present. They hear the front entrance closet open and they are right there, "Where you going daddy? When are you coming back?"

I agree you are in what feels like a hard place, and because you have not yet experienced the feeling of selflessness that comes with raising a family.

Look at it this way. You know raising a kid from a single parent house will have negative effects on the kid. 100x more so if its a girl. Yet you are not 100% certain that you and your wife will not be able to put petty things aside in order to raise a child in healthy home.
02-04-2020 02:07 PM
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RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 01:31 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 11:10 AM)thedream Wrote:  I have prayed every day for help from God. The clearest insight I have at this time is that I must do everything for the health of the child.

So start here.

Ask yourself which would be better for the health of the child? If it means staying in her country, that may only mean for now, until after the child is born, and not necessarily a life sentence.

I agree with a lot of what Leonard says, and it is important for her to know what you expect of her, although in this case it sounds like laying down the law too harshly might lead to an abortion, so you might have to take a more subtle approach.

In my experience, answers to prayer don't lay out the whole plan fully formed, they only tell you what to do next, and have faith in where it will lead.

One of the things I have learned about God over the years is that he is a pretty clever dude, and seems to have a handle on human psychology.

Notice that if you put all of your emphasis on the health of the child, you have unceremoniously removed the one thing that women use the control men: the well being of the child.

She can't use that on you if that is what you are using on her. (Of course, you won't be using it as a power play like she would, you will really mean it.)

Sentiments like, "It isn't about us anymore, it is about our child" can be used to great effect to get her to change her behavior and make sacrifices, and it bypasses the usual contrarianism of the female automatically doing the opposite of what the man wants, because you aren't thinking of yourself, you are thinking of the child, and how can she go against that in good conscience?

This is my sense of the direction you might go in response to how your prayer was answered, of how you might put into practice what God is hinting at.

If you really and truly start structuring your life around the best interests of the child, this will give you a lot of (earned) power in the relationship. What is junk food or a facial compared to bringing a life into the world and nurturing it? This may indirectly shame her to think less of herself and prepare for the future.

You can lay down the law as Leonard says, only it is soft power because you are truly thinking of the best interests of the child, so you can discuss with her what is best for the child, and then she can have a temper tantrum, and you can say, "Yeah, making changes is hard," validating her feelings, and then carrying on with the plan.

She would look pretty stupid complaining about you to her friends saying, "I hate him. He cares so much about the baby."

She is trying to turn you into a piece of velcro, looking for blame and criticism that she can stick to you and make things your fault. Unfortunately for her, you are actually an conscientious, enthusiastic, expectant father.

You are a piece of Teflon.

Ideally then, you will have the needed justification for trusting your own authority since it will all be in service of the child.

That way, if things turn around, you can marry her, and then move where you want.

At least the child will be born.

Worst case is she realizes that she has no desire for the sacrifices and responsibilities of motherhood and leaves you full custody, probably insulting you and calling you a pussy on the way out, and goes back to her party life. But so what?

You'll have your kid.

Obviously, it was your prayer and only you know how to act on the answer. The best the rest of us can do is some brainstorming and moral support. Let us know how it goes.

Solid and useful advice here. I appreciate your clarity and support.

I am taking everything in that all the men here are contributing and processing it.

I thank God for the strength in seeing the importance of the child being #1 and that it is my responsibility to be a good father to the child.

It's a bit cold but I don't care as much about the mother, not nearly as much as the child. I think this is normal in most cases.

Based off of recent conversations with her, I calmly do not believe she would do an abortion. At this point it's truly too late in her pregnancy to do that and she is reasonable enough to understand this.

With that THANKFULLY out of the way - the biggest risk is the child's mental health if he/she (don't know the sex yet) is raised by separated parents. This is no small risk to be taken lightly.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 02:33 PM by thedream.)
02-04-2020 02:29 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 02:03 PM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  OP, here is an anecdote from my own life.

Short story is, you won't know how having a child will change your life.

Thank you for sharing your personal life experience. It's immensely helpful. I am blessed by God to have this community to reach out to. I felt I was completely alone.

I completely agree I don't know how having a child will change my life.

I pray every day it changes my life! I want that.

Right now, I can't imagine not resenting my fiance. I resent her mostly because of her lack of submission. We had an open conversation about what I expect from her and that's when I learned in her mind submission = self disrespect. This opened by so many doors of clarity for me to how she actually thinks.

She doesn't get it. And no amount of 'male logic' will get through to her.

I only pray she will find God or some spiritual understanding of what it truly means to submit in a healthy way. I don't see how I could 'teach' her this. It has to come from within. In her case, at 22 years old, it may just be too late. Only time will tell.

(02-04-2020 02:07 PM)Laner Wrote:  You are not going to 'crack'. Your kid needs you too much for that to happen.

Its easy to focus on the baby for the next few years, making any problems you might have with her, soften slightly. Things weren't great between my wife and I, but little things - like seeing her hum while breastfeeding, with a smile on her face, or the way the baby's eyes lit up when she would snuggle him - certainly softened me.

Then there are the ways that a child needs dad. Not every second weekend, or Thursdays after work, but RIGHT NOW. Nothing will get you moving faster than a 4am "DADDY!!!!!" from your kids room. You might not think it matters, and that a kid would just call mom, but it does matter. How will a kid learn what commitment is when they see you a few days a month. And then you meet a nice, charming young girl and decide to spend a couple weeks away even though its your turn to care for your kid. Devastating. That innocent little kid is going to think its their fault, no matter how many therapists tell them differently. Even my 4yo makes me call and say I am on my way home so he can be sure to wait for me, running out with hugs and stories about his day. If I don't make it back when he thinks I should, he lets me know.

You will see quick that kids are never at ease unless all their loved ones are present. They hear the front entrance closet open and they are right there, "Where you going daddy? When are you coming back?"

I agree you are in what feels like a hard place, and because you have not yet experienced the feeling of selflessness that comes with raising a family.

Look at it this way. You know raising a kid from a single parent house will have negative effects on the kid. 100x more so if its a girl. Yet you are not 100% certain that you and your wife will not be able to put petty things aside in order to raise a child in healthy home.

Extremely good wisdom here. Thank you! Your argument on that above is on point.

I have not experienced yet the changes which I will go through. I can't yet.

I just pray she will change too. I pray she will see the light on how Instagram is damaging to all that is good in life, or at least the problems with social media. Right now when I try to explain it she looks at as if I am from another planet or just an asshole.
02-04-2020 02:58 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
I recently lost a good friend of mine. He was only 47 and died of a massive heart attack, leaving behind two sons: 13 and 17 respectively.

His wife was a complete ball buster. For 25 years, she made his life a living hell. It even got so bad that, at one point, she faked an abuse charge and had him arrested. He left her and had his own apartment, paid an expensive lawyer, etc. Later in the marriage, he confessed that he despised her with all his soul. In our circle of friends, nobody liked her.

But in the end, he came back to her for one reason - he wanted to be near his children.

Only the Good Lord knows why he was taken so young. However, it's quite possible that his wife, via constant drama, facilitated his early demise. Perhaps he had a predisposition to coronary issues, and she exacerbated this condition: i.e. playing havoc with his blood pressure. Or, the constant stress lead him to be ambivalent about his health: i.e. making bad food choices, drinking too much, etc.

This issue is quite serious. And, quite possibly, is the principal reason that men die younger than women - their sense of moral duty is used against them as a weapon.

"Action still preserves for us a hope that we may stand erect." - Thucydides (from History of the Peloponnesian War)
02-04-2020 04:20 PM
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RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 04:20 PM)MajorStyles Wrote:  I recently lost a good friend of mine. He was only 47 and died of a massive heart attack, leaving behind two sons: 13 and 17 respectively.

His wife was a complete ball buster. For 25 years, she made his life a living hell. It even got so bad that, at one point, she faked an abuse charge and had him arrested. He left her and had his own apartment, paid an expensive lawyer, etc. Later in the marriage, he confessed that he despised her with all his soul. In our circle of friends, nobody liked her.

But in the end, he came back to her for one reason - he wanted to be near his children.

Only the Good Lord knows why he was taken so young. However, it's quite possible that his wife, via constant drama, facilitated his early demise. Perhaps he had a predisposition to coronary issues, and she exacerbated this condition: i.e. playing havoc with his blood pressure. Or, the constant stress lead him to be ambivalent about his health: i.e. making bad food choices, drinking too much, etc.

This issue is quite serious. And, quite possibly, is the principal reason that men die younger than women - their sense of moral duty is used against them as a weapon.

This is eye opening. This hit me smack dab over the head.

My discomfort with this woman is so strong that it's physically manifested inside my chest as anxiety and tension all the time when I am around her. And that's most of the day. That's going to be a health issue down the road unless I can get that under control.

I have a moral duty to my future child. This is the only bit of certainty I have in my situation.

Otherwise I am lost in the woods with no flashlight. I am praying for the light of God's wisdom and love to guide me through. It's all I can do at this point.

I know I keep saying 'thank you' over and over but I don't know how else to express my gratitude to all the men who have chimed in here. God bless all of you.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 05:00 PM by thedream.)
02-04-2020 04:59 PM
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RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 04:59 PM)thedream Wrote:  My discomfort with this woman is so strong that it's physically manifested inside my chest as anxiety and tension all the time when I am around her. And that's most of the day. That's going to be a health issue down the road unless I can get that under control.

I'm really sorry to hear this man. I know exactly the feeling and it is absolutely awful. I'm assuming her English isn't perfect either so you're having trouble communicating exactly how serious the situation is. I can really sympathize with your frustration.

You are not fully in control of this so you don't have full moral culpability. So don't weigh yourself down with more guilt than you're due.

I think you need to start treating this situation tactically. You made a mistake. You will however, have a child and will probably look back on this as trying but on the balance worth it.

I can understand why you wouldn't want to live in EE. It is depressing. And it's bad place to raise a kid and have a career (Before someone chimes in, I'm there right now and have been for over a year).

If it was me in the situation I would do this:
- Get her moral basis away from pop culture and anchored in Christianity. Taking her to church, having the pastor speak to her. Watching the right youtube videos together. And discussing.
- Show her graphs, etc, of what happens to children of divorced parents.
- After this explain that she needs to change her behavior. (While making a commitment to be a good husband yourself).

If you are unable to shift her moral basis and don't think the behavior will change (or you think it hasn't really taken root), you're in a bit of trouble and I would look on the situation coldly. Tactically. Trying to reduce as much damage as you can. And basically long term game her:
- Use reward/punishment training.
- Find all your levers of power (like the other poster suggested).
- Dread game (sadly necessary in this situation but effective).

No matter what happens you seem like an articulate and smart guy who's made an error (though you might look back in x years and dispute that). Everything is not lost. You will pull through this.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 08:11 PM by Feyoder.)
02-04-2020 07:49 PM
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FullThrottleTX Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-03-2020 04:36 PM)Rob Banks Wrote:  
(02-03-2020 04:01 PM)thedream Wrote:  ...
Cons of Staying With Her

- The child is raised in an unhealthy environment where Mommy and Daddy are just pretending to make it work
- The child starts to feel that something is not right at home between Mom and Dad
- Arguments and tension between Mom and Dad
...

These are BS boomer ideas from the 60's and 70's.

The notion that "The child will be happy if mommy and daddy are happy, even if that means divorce" is not true. It is the parents' responsibility to care for the child properly (which means being together). It is NOT the child's responsibility to make sure his parents are happy.

If ya'll want to be married and miserable, go for it.
I've been there.

Kids don't appreciate shit, keep that in mind. Don't live for your children, you will instantly regret all of that sacrifice. Do the best you can to take care of them and not screw them up, but there are no guarantees (2 parents or 1 parent, there have been fucked up kids either way). Nobody is going to give you a gold metal for staying in a shitty marriage. I know ya'll are moralizing and posturing over this, but I would bet most have never been in a shitty marriage (I guarantee that). I should also note, while divorce is a boomer phenomena, the fetishization/coddling of kids is a gen x / millennial phenomena that's leading to worse issues: spoiled, bratty kids that are complete narcissists and snowflakes. Us latchkey kids have way more grit.

A lot of parents get along better both as people and as parents separated, it doesn't have to be a nuclear option where there is intense conflict between the two of ya'll that permanently scars or fucks up the kids. I was a single parent kid, I should know.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 08:01 PM by FullThrottleTX.)
02-04-2020 07:58 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 04:59 PM)thedream Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 04:20 PM)MajorStyles Wrote:  I recently lost a good friend of mine. He was only 47 and died of a massive heart attack, leaving behind two sons: 13 and 17 respectively.

His wife was a complete ball buster. For 25 years, she made his life a living hell. It even got so bad that, at one point, she faked an abuse charge and had him arrested. He left her and had his own apartment, paid an expensive lawyer, etc. Later in the marriage, he confessed that he despised her with all his soul. In our circle of friends, nobody liked her.

But in the end, he came back to her for one reason - he wanted to be near his children.

Only the Good Lord knows why he was taken so young. However, it's quite possible that his wife, via constant drama, facilitated his early demise. Perhaps he had a predisposition to coronary issues, and she exacerbated this condition: i.e. playing havoc with his blood pressure. Or, the constant stress lead him to be ambivalent about his health: i.e. making bad food choices, drinking too much, etc.

This issue is quite serious. And, quite possibly, is the principal reason that men die younger than women - their sense of moral duty is used against them as a weapon.

This is eye opening. This hit me smack dab over the head.

My discomfort with this woman is so strong that it's physically manifested inside my chest as anxiety and tension all the time when I am around her. And that's most of the day. That's going to be a health issue down the road unless I can get that under control.

I have a moral duty to my future child. This is the only bit of certainty I have in my situation.

Otherwise I am lost in the woods with no flashlight. I am praying for the light of God's wisdom and love to guide me through. It's all I can do at this point.

I know I keep saying 'thank you' over and over but I don't know how else to express my gratitude to all the men who have chimed in here. God bless all of you.

Yes, and you cannot fulfill that moral duty if you are dead. If your son was given the choice, I’m sure he would say that he prefers to have a relationship with you when he’s 30, as opposed to having you suddenly die when he’s 10.

Perhaps you need to make a 5-year plan; write this plan out on a piece of paper, discussing what you’ll need to see in 5 years. If you do not receive those things in 5 years, then you might have to cut your losses and separate from this woman.

Nobody wants to admit these things; they are painful. And yet, you can’t be of any use to people if you’re a physical and emotional wreck.

"Action still preserves for us a hope that we may stand erect." - Thucydides (from History of the Peloponnesian War)
02-04-2020 08:05 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 12:21 PM)gringoed Wrote:  Don't choose to make yourself unhappy the rest of your life. You only have one life and eventually you'll crack and have a midlife crisis. Being in an unhappy relationship isn't great for the kids either. If it's too late to abort, do joint custody and be a great dad when you have the kid.

Seriously?

OP came here looking to take responsibility and be a good father to his child, and your advice is for him to kill the child?

OP, if you do this, you will likely regret it for the rest of your life. I think you already know this since you mentioned that you were afraid your wife might choose to abort if you were to leave her before the baby is born.
02-04-2020 08:10 PM
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Post: #41
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 07:58 PM)FullThrottleTX Wrote:  
(02-03-2020 04:36 PM)Rob Banks Wrote:  
(02-03-2020 04:01 PM)thedream Wrote:  ...
Cons of Staying With Her

- The child is raised in an unhealthy environment where Mommy and Daddy are just pretending to make it work
- The child starts to feel that something is not right at home between Mom and Dad
- Arguments and tension between Mom and Dad
...

These are BS boomer ideas from the 60's and 70's.

The notion that "The child will be happy if mommy and daddy are happy, even if that means divorce" is not true. It is the parents' responsibility to care for the child properly (which means being together). It is NOT the child's responsibility to make sure his parents are happy.

If ya'll want to be married and miserable, go for it.
I've been there.

Kids don't appreciate shit...

Kids don't appreciate shit while they are kids. When they are grown, they will most certainly appreciate having grown up in a stable home.

(02-04-2020 07:58 PM)FullThrottleTX Wrote:  ...keep that in mind. Don't live for your children, you will instantly regret all of that sacrifice...

A lot of people would say that to be a real man, you need to sacrifice yourself for others (especially your family and children).

(02-04-2020 07:58 PM)FullThrottleTX Wrote:  Do the best you can to take care of them and not screw them up, but there are no guarantees (2 parents or 1 parent, there have been fucked up kids either way). Nobody is going to give you a gold metal for staying in a shitty marriage. I know ya'll are moralizing and posturing over this, but I would bet most have never been in a shitty marriage (I guarantee that). I should also note, while divorce is a boomer phenomena, the fetishization/coddling of kids is a gen x / millennial phenomena that's leading to worse issues: spoiled, bratty kids that are complete narcissists and snowflakes. Us latchkey kids have way more grit.

A lot of parents get along better both as people and as parents separated, it doesn't have to be a nuclear option where there is intense conflict between the two of ya'll that permanently scars or fucks up the kids. I was a single parent kid, I should know.

Are you saying that the expectation that parents stay together and raise their kids in a stable two-parent home amounts to "fetishization/coddling of kids" and will lead to the children becoming "spoiled, bratty narcissists and snowflakes"?

If that were true, then kids who grow up in broken homes would, on average, grow up to be more well-adjusted and have more stable lives than kids who come from intact homes.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 08:21 PM by Rob Banks.)
02-04-2020 08:20 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 08:20 PM)Rob Banks Wrote:  If that were true, then kids who grow up in broken homes would, on average, grow up to be more well-adjusted and have more stable lives than kids who come from intact homes.

Well said. You're arguing (my guess) with the boomer me-me-me mentality. Wait for the anecdote that disproves the rule. "But I know a guy..."
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 08:30 PM by Feyoder.)
02-04-2020 08:30 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
OP
You mentioned you dont want to live in her EE town. Is she in the US with you now?

_______________________________________
- Does She Have The "Happy Gene" ?
-Inversion Therapy
-Let's lead by example


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02-04-2020 08:48 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 08:20 PM)Rob Banks Wrote:  A lot of people would say that to be a real man, you need to sacrifice yourself for others (especially your family and children).

A lot of people are idiots. To be a real man you need a pair of testicles.

If you get divorced, and it fucks them up a little, it's not the end of their lives.
I should know...

Therapy and a good co-parenting interaction can save.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 09:04 PM by FullThrottleTX.)
02-04-2020 09:02 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
A lot of millennials are obsessed with parenting and being "perfect parents". The outcome won't be good, I guarantee it. Live your own life or your kids will never be independent.
This obsession is a new phenomena. Do you think fathers in the 50s spent a lot of time obsessing about being perfect parents? Doubt it. They were "absentee" in that they worked 12 hours a day and made the woman do everything.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 09:12 PM by FullThrottleTX.)
02-04-2020 09:11 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 07:49 PM)Feyoder Wrote:  If you are unable to shift her moral basis and don't think the behavior will change (or you think it hasn't really taken root), you're in a bit of trouble and I would look on the situation coldly. Tactically. Trying to reduce as much damage as you can. And basically long term game her:
- Use reward/punishment training.
- Find all your levers of power (like the other poster suggested).
- Dread game (sadly necessary in this situation but effective).

No matter what happens you seem like an articulate and smart guy who's made an error (though you might look back in x years and dispute that). Everything is not lost. You will pull through this.

Solid advice and I thank you for your support.

What is dread game?

(02-04-2020 08:05 PM)MajorStyles Wrote:  Yes, and you cannot fulfill that moral duty if you are dead. If your son was given the choice, I’m sure he would say that he prefers to have a relationship with you when he’s 30, as opposed to having you suddenly die when he’s 10.

Perhaps you need to make a 5-year plan; write this plan out on a piece of paper, discussing what you’ll need to see in 5 years. If you do not receive those things in 5 years, then you might have to cut your losses and separate from this woman.

Nobody wants to admit these things; they are painful. And yet, you can’t be of any use to people if you’re a physical and emotional wreck.

Amen. The 5-year plan is exactly something I was thinking about but hadn't yet articulated. Extremely helpful and clear.

(02-04-2020 08:48 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  OP
You mentioned you dont want to live in her EE town. Is she in the US with you now?

We currently live in Central America. She would not be legally married in the US to me unless I decide to make that happen. Our marriage here is only recognized here.

(02-04-2020 09:11 PM)FullThrottleTX Wrote:  A lot of millennials are obsessed with parenting and being "perfect parents". The outcome won't be good, I guarantee it. Live your own life or your kids will never be independent.
This obsession is a new phenomena. Do you think fathers in the 50s spent a lot of time obsessing about being perfect parents? Doubt it. They were "absentee" in that they worked 12 hours a day and made the woman do everything.

While I am not in complete agreement with everything you said, you have some legitimate points.

The complication with co-parenting with her is she is a EE citizen and I am a USA citizen. I would not want to live in her EE shit hole for any more than a few months a year. And I wouldn't want to make her a US citizen unless she was actually my wife! My child will be a US citizen however and I am sure that will benefit them (as opposed to being a EE citizen). Though who knows what the US will be like when the child is 18?
02-04-2020 09:16 PM
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RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
I agree that parents have gone overboard with helicopter parenting often, but I disagree that that's proof that growing up in a broken house is fine, perhaps even ideal since it makes you tough. They're two separate issues. Helicopter parents spoil children with too much coddling and insulation, not too much parenting. Also, their helicoptering is more like "hacking" the kid - trying to optimize for certain variables that help them climb social ladders rather than instilling them with real values.
02-04-2020 09:19 PM
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RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 09:19 PM)kel Wrote:  I agree that parents have gone overboard with helicopter parenting often, but I disagree that that's proof that growing up in a broken house is fine, perhaps even ideal since it makes you tough. They're two separate issues. Helicopter parents spoil children with too much coddling and insulation, not too much parenting. Also, their helicoptering is more like "hacking" the kid - trying to optimize for certain variables that help them climb social ladders rather than instilling them with real values.

I don't think I'm arguing for either "it's fine" or "makes them tougher".
I'm arguing that kids are pretty hardy and they can recover from a divorce and we shouldn't sacrifice 18+ years of a shitty marriage just for the gamble (and it is a gamble) that the kids will be better off if you stay together.

Divorce is not something to shoot for. Nobody gets married to get divorced. Nobody wants to go through that.
02-04-2020 09:33 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 09:33 PM)FullThrottleTX Wrote:  
(02-04-2020 09:19 PM)kel Wrote:  I agree that parents have gone overboard with helicopter parenting often, but I disagree that that's proof that growing up in a broken house is fine, perhaps even ideal since it makes you tough. They're two separate issues. Helicopter parents spoil children with too much coddling and insulation, not too much parenting. Also, their helicoptering is more like "hacking" the kid - trying to optimize for certain variables that help them climb social ladders rather than instilling them with real values.

I don't think I'm arguing for either "it's fine" or "makes them tougher".
I'm arguing that kids are pretty hardy and they can recover from a divorce and we shouldn't sacrifice 18+ years of a shitty marriage just for the gamble (and it is a gamble) that the kids will be better off if you stay together.

Divorce is not something to shoot for. Nobody gets married to get divorced. Nobody wants to go through that.

In my case the child is not yet born. Do you think that makes a difference if the divorce happens now or "later" when the child is 5 or 10.

I believe it does since if the child is just used to things as they have always been - and mommy and daddy have always been separate, that's far superior to it happening when the child is 5 or 10.

The strong point in staying in it no matter what "for now" is that a divorce can happen 2 years down the road but if I split with her now, cannot go back the other way.

I hate that I have to consider any of this as this whole situation is something I never imagined I would go through. But I am trying to do my best given the situation.
(This post was last modified: 02-04-2020 09:41 PM by thedream.)
02-04-2020 09:40 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Dads: Should You Stay For Your Kids Even If You Are Extremely Unhappy?
(02-04-2020 09:16 PM)thedream Wrote:  The complication with co-parenting with her is she is a EE citizen and I am a USA citizen. I would not want to live in her EE shit hole for any more than a few months a year. And I wouldn't want to make her a US citizen unless she was actually my wife! My child will be a US citizen however and I am sure that will benefit them (as opposed to being a EE citizen). Though who knows what the US will be like when the child is 18?

What does she want?
Sounds like this is a one-sided decision...
02-04-2020 09:40 PM
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