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The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
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Emperor Constantine Offline
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Post: #26
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
I learned today that after the English reformation, although the Anglicans normally celebrated the Mass in English, the rules allowed for the liturgy to be celebrated in any language that was understood. So at the universities - where the whole curricula was basically Greek and Latin - for a long time they continued to celebrate Mass and the Divine Office in Latin.

Also in Ireland, they kept the Latin liturgy until it could be translated into Gaellic, since the Irish were more familiar with Latin than with English.
01-26-2020 05:37 PM
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Post: #27
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
What Do All of the Following
Words and Phrases Have In Common?

sacrifice
reparation
hell
the gravity of sin
snares of wickedness
the burden of evil
adversities
enemies
evils
tribulations
afflictions
infirmities of soul
obstinacy of heart
concupiscence of the flesh and of the eyes
unworthiness
temptations
wicked thoughts
grave offenses
loss of heaven
everlasting death
eternal punishment
hidden fruits
guilt
eternal rest
true faith
merits
intercession
heavenly fellowship
fires of hell

What do these phrases and words all have in common? They are all found in the Traditional Roman Catholic (Latin) Mass and were systematically suppressed and eliminated from the “revised” Novus Ordo missal by Pope Paul VI in 1969.

For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Rom 1:22
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2020 11:12 PM by NoMoreTO.)
02-23-2020 11:12 PM
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Augustus_Principe Offline
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Post: #28
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
(01-22-2020 06:02 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 01:20 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  - Who are your ancestors and why did they revolt?

[Image: estatua-de-grgur-ninski.jpg]

My hometown has a giant statue of this Croatian Bishop called Grgur Ninski (Gregory of Nin) who got the permission from Rome to celebrate the Mass in the local language instead of Latin in 926. He was later replaced and had his Bishopric dissolved after infighting within the church, but the tradition remained and our language and alphabet thrived thanks to this, and we remained in the Roman sphere of influence rather than the Byzantine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_C...iddle_Ages

"Since the 9th century there is in Croatia a unique phenomenon in the entire world of Catholicism, liturgy that was held in Church Slavonic language with special Glagolitic script (Pope was allowing serving liturgy only in Latin). Despite the various disputes, Pope Innocent IV approved use of Church Slavonic language and the Glagolitic script to Filip, bishop of Senj, thus making Croats the only Latin Catholics in the world allowed to use a language other than Latin in their liturgy prior to the Second Vatican Council in 1962"

Very interesting as I too, never heard of this. Do you understand Old Church Slavonic?

To stay on topic, I find the Latin language beautiful and Gregorian Chant nothing short of heavenly, even though I do not understand it, but can make out some words with my knowledge of Spanish. I will start to make an effort to learn these prayers in Latin.
02-24-2020 11:22 AM
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Post: #29
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
(02-24-2020 11:22 AM)Augustus_Principe Wrote:  To stay on topic, I find the Latin language beautiful and Gregorian Chant nothing short of heavenly, even though I do not understand it, but can make out some words with my knowledge of Spanish. I will start to make an effort to learn these prayers in Latin.

I would recommend picking up an old 1962 or 1945 Missal if you aren't going to TLM but are interested in learning the prayers/mass. You can get these online or at a TLM Church

They will have translations of the mass, translations of many main prayers in Latin / English, and lots of additional prayers in English. They are solid prayer books in addition to having all the masses for the whole year

You can also check into having a bible which has the Latin & English side by side. I have an Douay Rheims which has the latin vulgate side by side. I rarely use it but it's definitely a nice to have.

For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Rom 1:22
(This post was last modified: 02-24-2020 11:54 AM by NoMoreTO.)
02-24-2020 11:53 AM
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Augustus_Principe
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Post: #30
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
(02-23-2020 11:12 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  What Do All of the Following
Words and Phrases Have In Common?

sacrifice
reparation
hell
the gravity of sin
snares of wickedness
the burden of evil
adversities
enemies
evils
tribulations
afflictions
infirmities of soul
obstinacy of heart
concupiscence of the flesh and of the eyes
unworthiness
temptations
wicked thoughts
grave offenses
loss of heaven
everlasting death
eternal punishment
hidden fruits
guilt
eternal rest
true faith
merits
intercession
heavenly fellowship
fires of hell

What do these phrases and words all have in common? They are all found in the Traditional Roman Catholic (Latin) Mass and were systematically suppressed and eliminated from the “revised” Novus Ordo missal by Pope Paul VI in 1969.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I hear all of those words during every Mass that I attend...

Augustus Wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_C...iddle_Ages

"Since the 9th century there is in Croatia a unique phenomenon in the entire world of Catholicism, liturgy that was held in Church Slavonic language with special Glagolitic script (Pope was allowing serving liturgy only in Latin). Despite the various disputes, Pope Innocent IV approved use of Church Slavonic language and the Glagolitic script to Filip, bishop of Senj, thus making Croats the only Latin Catholics in the world allowed to use a language other than Latin in their liturgy prior to the Second Vatican Council in 1962"

Very interesting as I too, never heard of this. Do you understand Old Church Slavonic?

Sure, my knowledge of Glagolitic (Glagoljica) script is pretty rusty right now, but if it's spoken or written in the Latin/Croatian alphabet, I understand most of Old Church Slavonic (Staroslavenski). It's no more foreign than any other Slavic language to me, probably less so.




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02-24-2020 05:45 PM
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Post: #31
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
(02-24-2020 05:45 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  Maybe I'm crazy, but I hear all of those words during every Mass that I attend...

You have a good Church / Parish then. I have heard that in Europe, depending where you are the teaching isn't quite so watered down. Specifically in Eastern Europe, former communist block countries. There is also some variation priest to priest.

Generally speaking, the education of the Priests in Traditional Rites is more orthodox, more strict.

I hadn't heard the word hell for 10 years in Church until I went to TLM. I remember it well actually. The priest explained in his homily that God was infinitely loving because heaven was infinitely beautiful, but hell was not infinitely painful, which was a sign of mercy. That one took a moment to sink in.

Part of it is tone, the other part is that in a Novus Ordo mass, the general audience has a significantly lower catechism level. If you speak of temporal punishment, no one will know what you're talking about.

For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Rom 1:22
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2020 12:10 AM by NoMoreTO.)
02-25-2020 12:09 AM
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Emperor Constantine Offline
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Post: #32
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
(02-24-2020 11:22 AM)Augustus_Principe Wrote:  "... Despite the various disputes, Pope Innocent IV approved use of Church Slavonic language and the Glagolitic script to Filip, bishop of Senj, thus making Croats the only Latin Catholics in the world allowed to use a language other than Latin in their liturgy prior to the Second Vatican Council in 1962"

Not quite. IIRC it was Charlemagne who first successfully enforced the use of the Latin Mass throughout his empire. In the ancient world and the early middle ages there were still vernacular liturgies in the West. St. Aidan of Lindisfarne (same Lindisfarne that the Vikings sacked) is remembered for his preservation of the Celtic liturgies and traditions in the face of attempted Latinization.

By the waters of Babylon, there we sat down and we wept, when we remembered Zion.
02-25-2020 10:56 PM
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Post: #33
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
I thought I'd cross post this here, what to do if you don't have a latin mass nearby! Wondering if any of you guys have methods of discerning Novus Ordo or just stay home.

The key in the Roman Catholic Church is selecting a parish which is 'based'. My thinking would be that your first priority should be a conservative traditional liturgy, this would be my favourites in order. The great thing about latin mass isn't just the liturgy, its also that the parishioners are seeking a traditional liturgy and I have found are more devout.
(1) FSSP / Institute of Christ the King (Latin Mass)
(2) SSPX (Latin Mass)
(3) Latin Mass at your local diocese (if you can't find #1 or #2 locally)

After this you look at your local parish celebrating Novus Ordo (New Order) Mass.
(a) Listen to the homilies. I recently met a white girl who went to a Hatian Church with all black people because the Priest gave based homilies. There are still some good homilies depending on the Priest. It isn't all about being based either.
(b) Following above, consider a Church built by an ethnic group that is based. These parishes might be a little more based if the people are from Victor Orbans' Hungary for example.
© Take a look at the bulletin, how many female lectors (readers) are there ? How many times is confession offered/ week? Do they do first Friday, First Saturdays, benediction on a regular basis.
(d) Are eucharistic ministers being used, if so, take your communion from the Priest and avoid using them.
(e) Are all altar boys male
(f) Does priest wear all black with collar outside of mass? To me this is a good sign of a trad priest.
(g) Consider the organ music mass over the guitar mass if you want more conservative.
(h) Look at the architecture of the Church. Was it built before 1970 ? Catholic Churches with new architecture are built like barns, are less ornate and have more simplistic stain glass windows. Also you will notice some of them are more circular or have a fan quality. Basically avoid modern architecture churches!

For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Rom 1:22
03-04-2020 02:37 PM
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Post: #34
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
The SSPX is building a massive new Cathedral in St. Mary's Kansas to hold over 1,500 parishioners and serve over 4,000 members of their congregation. Trad Catholicism is getting really popular.

https://vimeo.com/347756180 (25 minute video going over the history of St. Mary's, detailing the founding of the town by Catholic missionaries, purchase of the campus by the SSPX in the 70s, burning down of the old church in the 80's, and construction of the new Cathedral)




You can keep updated with the construction on their website: https://www.anewimmaculata.org/
(This post was last modified: 03-11-2020 09:15 AM by fr0st.)
03-11-2020 08:45 AM
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Post: #35
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
(03-11-2020 08:45 AM)fr0st Wrote:  The SSPX is building a massive new Cathedral in St. Mary's Kansas to hold over 1,500 parishioners and serve over 4,000 members of their congregation. Trad Catholicism is getting really popular.

https://vimeo.com/347756180 (25 minute video going over the history of St. Mary's, detailing the founding of the town by Catholic missionaries, purchase of the campus by the SSPX in the 70s, burning down of the old church in the 80's, and construction of the new Cathedral)




You can keep updated with the construction on their website: https://www.anewimmaculata.org/

Very curious if anyone's ever made the pilgrimage.

Or, just for starters, has anyone actually met SSPX parishioners? There's not much near me and I have little to no familiarity with them in real life.

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03-12-2020 06:01 PM
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Post: #36
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
Haha, perfect timing. T-Marsh just posted an interview with an SSPX priest. Haven't listened yet but this should be good...




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03-12-2020 08:59 PM
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Post: #37
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
(03-12-2020 08:59 PM)redbeard Wrote:  Haha, perfect timing. T-Marsh just posted an interview with an SSPX priest. Haven't listened yet but this should be good...




Marshall is a member of the FSSP who split from the SSPX during the little excommunication fiasco, I'll have to listen.
03-12-2020 09:39 PM
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Post: #38
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
This was a solid show.

Listening to Fr. Robinson talk about Ab. Lefebvre, it feels very similar to how Roosh has been treated by the media.

Ask any mainstream Catholic what they think of the SSPX. They'll either have no idea who they are, or they'll say "oh, they're heretical, stay away." They take one event (the Écône consecrations) and blow it way out of proportion.

Similarly, liberals and feminists read one Roosh article (How To Prevent Rape) and smear him as a rape advocate. Seem familiar?

This podcast clearly shows that the Archbishop had good intentions and tried to follow canon law to a T. Combine this with the fact that the bishops from the Écône consecrations had their excommunications lifted in 2009, it initially doesn't make sense why the SSPX is treated so badly. But, after this podcast, it's clear - Ab. Lefebvre would not bend knee to the Novus Ordo, and was punished for it.

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03-14-2020 09:18 PM
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Post: #39
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
Good counterpoint from Fr. Ripperger:




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03-15-2020 10:55 AM
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RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
Really great time to emphasize the necessity of owning a hand missal. Not only is it an excellent tool for daily devotions while on quarantine, but it means you can also practice (dry) mass if SHTF and we don't have electricity. You also never know when Fahrenheit 451 will become reality...

Here's what I have:

https://angeluspress.org/collections/tri...ily-missal

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03-22-2020 12:35 PM
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Post: #41
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
Lent is actually the oldest part of the Missal (aside from holy week which was swapped between 1945 and 1962).

On Good Friday in the 1945 we prayed for the "Faithless" Jews (Perfidious), which was removed
Quote:Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts 2 Corinthians 3:13-16; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. ('Amen' is not responded, nor is said 'Let us pray', or 'Let us kneel', or 'Arise', but immediately is saidSmile Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.

One nice thing about Lent is there is a specific mass everyday. The translation in latin for Lenten season in the missal is actually different than in the Latin Vulgate which dates back to the 4th century. You may notice slight differences in translation because the Missal is actually older.

Why not change it? Because this translation was 'edified' through the Mass! An interesting idea, although the Vulgate may be more accurate as a translation or the standard translation, because so many Masses were performed with this translation, it was made holy defacto. It is the oldest part of your missal.

The Priests at my FSSP want to replace the 1962 Holy Week with a 1945 Holy Week. Right now only a subset of FSSP Parishes have approval from the Pope to perform the 1945 version. He anticipates approval for the 1945 version to all FSSP parishes next year. Lets see. The Holy Week was the first part of the Mass updated, by one of the masterminds of the Novus Ordo, prior to Novus Ordo.

In the 1945 Good Friday Mass, only the Priest receives communion.

For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Rom 1:22
(This post was last modified: 03-22-2020 06:11 PM by NoMoreTO.)
03-22-2020 06:02 PM
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Post: #42
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
Good Friday in the Byzantine Rite is pretty savage towards the Jews as well. It appears the Eastern rite Catholics have dropped the word "Jew" from the Orthodox service, but kept all the synonyms. Just looking at Matins, you see them labeled as:
"The lawless company of the enemies of God"
"the wicked band of murderers"
"impious ones"
"pack of dogs"
"unrighteous people"

This evisceration is put on hold through the little hours and resumes at Vespers.
Source: https://mci.archpitt.org/sheetmusic/gene...Matins.pdf

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03-22-2020 06:32 PM
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Post: #43
RE: The Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Thread
(02-24-2020 11:53 AM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  
(02-24-2020 11:22 AM)Augustus_Principe Wrote:  To stay on topic, I find the Latin language beautiful and Gregorian Chant nothing short of heavenly, even though I do not understand it, but can make out some words with my knowledge of Spanish. I will start to make an effort to learn these prayers in Latin.

I would recommend picking up an old 1962 or 1945 Missal if you aren't going to TLM but are interested in learning the prayers/mass. You can get these online or at a TLM Church

They will have translations of the mass, translations of many main prayers in Latin / English, and lots of additional prayers in English. They are solid prayer books in addition to having all the masses for the whole year

You can also check into having a bible which has the Latin & English side by side. I have an Douay Rheims which has the latin vulgate side by side. I rarely use it but it's definitely a nice to have.

Corpus Christi Watershed uploaded an older Lasance Missal that's a great base for starting to learn the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) and get a feel for what to expect in a missal. It's the same version recommended by Taylor Marshall.

https://www.ccwatershed.org/2013/03/19/1...ce-missal/

However, nothing beats a physical copy. I study my St. Andrew's Daily (1945) before going to a diocesan TLM so I can focus on the altar, as Roosh mentioned earlier.
03-23-2020 10:13 PM
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