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Testosterone injections
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #1276
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-14-2020 12:58 AM)catfanman6 Wrote:  Regarding Testosterone Cyp.injections for prescription TRT:
I'm just about to get started with TRT Cyp and have a few questions. IM or SubQ? I'm heavily leaning towards SubQ as I've read a lot about SubQ being better because it keeps your T levels at a more consistent level, without such a huge spike after injection & dip towards the end of the week like with I'M (typically about 100 mg per week) since T Cyp has a half life of 7-8 days. Instead of pinning 100 mg per week IM, you could do 33 mg 3x per week SubQ. SubQ is supposed to keep your estradiol levels more in check as it more accurately reflects your own body’s natural T release of a little bit released each day instead of one relatively massive dose of 100 mg all at once with IM. Natural T isn't released at a rate of 100 mg at once & therefore I think it makes it difficult to keep your estradiol levels in check. You also save youeself with a lifetime of thousands of poked holes in your muscles. It seems 2-3x per week SubQ would be better than IM 1x per week particularly at keeping your estradiol in check and more consistent levels of T of not too much at one time and not have a drop off towards the end of the week which is more reflective of how you naturally release T. Any thoughts would be appreciated...Next question What is the best syringe type, needle gage & needle length to use for for SubQ? I've read T Cyp is pretty thick liquid.
Could you get by with using a diabetes syringe with snap or twist on needles of a 21G to draw the T out of the vial & then take it off & replace with a 27G needle for SubQ injection? I realize it probably would take a bit more pressure to inject a 27G but the smaller the gage the less tissue damage. What is the best length for a SubQ needle length to where your just getting into the top fat layer without entering the muscle. Ive read about anything from a 3/16" to a 1/2" length needle for SubQ. I am 6'3" & 250 lbs with an athletic build. With SubQ does it matter if you inject at a 45° angle versus a 90° angle like you would with IM? Where is the best place to purchase specific syringe types and sizes in which the needles arent fixed (where you can twist on & off different needles) to be able to withdrawal the T from the rubber top vial with, say a 21G & use the same syring with a different needle, say a 27G to inject with the appropriate length in bulk?
Pharmacy, Walgreens, Walmart, online site? If anyone knows of a high quality online source, please share as it would be nice to have the privacy aspect? Finally do most Dr's, in particular endocrinologists & urologists, allow you to inject at home on your own? I mean it isn't feasible to have to go in 3x per week to the Dr's office especially when my Dr is an hour away so it would be a 2 hour round trip each time. I'm eager to get started as I've suffered with treatment resistant depression for 20 years but the last 2 years have been especially brutal beyond what I've previously experienced and I finally found a Dr knowledgeable enough to have my T level checked. My last two T draws were 174 & 215, which is scary low. Any help and suggestions would be much appreciated in advance.

I just have my PA do it so I don't have to worry or care about any of that. If it's an option I recommend that, even though micro-dosing throughout the week is probably better overall than one shot at the office for the reasons you've suggested. I've been on it for about 3 months and it's working out well. The PA (or one of the other assistants) gives me the HCG shot in my stomach, the TRT shot in my butt cheek, and then I take .5mg of Arimidex 24 hours after the shot to control the estrogen conversion. It's a good system.

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2020 04:20 AM by MichaelWitcoff.)
02-15-2020 04:16 AM
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jeffreyjerpp Offline
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Post: #1277
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-15-2020 04:16 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  I just have my PA do it so I don't have to worry or care about any of that. If it's an option I recommend that, even though micro-dosing throughout the week is probably better overall than one shot at the office for the reasons you've suggested. I've been on it for about 3 months and it's working out well. The PA (or one of the other assistants) gives me the HCG shot in my stomach, the TRT shot in my butt cheek, and then I take .5mg of Arimidex 24 hours after the shot to control the estrogen conversion. It's a good system.

No, it is not a good system:





Please remember, most of these TRT clinics are run for profit by people that do not know or care what they are doing to your body.

They want your money, they want you dependent on them for everything, and they especially do not want you understanding how any of this works.

For example, unless you are extremely prone to estrogen conversion, you should never need an aromatase inhibitor. In fact, using an aromatase inhibitor makes the testosterone neurotoxic.

Did they explain any of this to you before getting you on testosterone? Are they even aware of this fact?

The clinic I use tried to having me take 2 mg of anastrozole every week, along with 200 mg of test cyp and HCG. This is totally insane, obviously, but they don't care, and likely didn't know what they were even doing.

Do you know what happens when you stay on a routine like this for a while?

"Our beloved son, brother, and fiancé, John K. Crisler, died unexpectedly on Wednesday, January 16, 2019, at the age of 60.
........
In 2001, John earned a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine degree from Michigan State University and went on to become president, founder and CEO of Superior Age Management, AllThingsMale Center for Men’s Health in Lansing.

He was a pioneer in developing cutting-edge men’s health therapies, treating ‘his guys’ with compassion and the most comprehensive care.

Keeping fit and healthy was his passion. He enjoyed travel, time spent with friends and family, and watching MSU and professional sports. John was soft-spoken and kind-hearted, with a dynamic personality. He blessed and was blessed by his many close friends.

We will all miss your infectious smile and sense of humor, and that twinkle in your eye."

https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/name/j...=191313298

In case you missed it, this was a TRT doctor, who didn't even know that estrogen was extremely important to overall health, and is now dead because the unopposed androgens in the testosterone injections wrecked his heart.

It is extremely easy to inject testosterone yourself, and there is no reason you should depend on a doctor or PA to do these things for you. I would also strongly recommend doing regular research yourself on TRT, because the reality is you are taking your health into your hands by doing something like this.

Dividing your weekly dose into three equal shots, with Monday/Wednesday/Friday injections, should stabilize blood levels and prevent excess estrogen and DHT conversion. You will get the benefits you want (more free testosterone) without side effects, or a sudden rise in sex hormone binding globulin.

If a clinic is giving you a single injection per week, that is a red flag. A single injection with an AI is a bigger one.

You should probably also consider donating blood, among other things.
02-15-2020 11:19 AM
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Nacho Offline
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Post: #1278
RE: Testosterone injections
Does anyone know what would be causing a below range shbg? Last time I tested I was at 9 with total test below 200. What's confusing is my free T still comes up within the normal range. I feel I have symptoms for low T even though my free T isn't bad. I have read that taking exogenous test can further complicate things by suppressing shbg even more.
02-15-2020 03:02 PM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #1279
RE: Testosterone injections
I didn't start on the Arimidex until a couple weeks of TRT produced absolutely zero effect on my testosterone levels. In fact it went down in that time period, and that's why the PA suggested the Arimidex - because it looked like the testosterone was converting completely into estrogen. My Estradiol is right in the middle of the normal range on this program, or at least it was last time my labs were done.

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 02-15-2020 03:40 PM by MichaelWitcoff.)
02-15-2020 03:39 PM
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jeffreyjerpp Offline
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Post: #1280
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-15-2020 03:39 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  I didn't start on the Arimidex until a couple weeks of TRT produced absolutely zero effect on my testosterone levels. In fact it went down in that time period, and that's why the PA suggested the Arimidex - because it looked like the testosterone was converting completely into estrogen. My Estradiol is right in the middle of the normal range on this program, or at least it was last time my labs were done.

My point, generally, is that your PA might have no clue what they're talking about, and that the incentives of your TRT clinic are not aligned with the incentives of your health.





Some concerns:

1) You're probably not getting the right kind of estrogen test.
2) Being "middle of the road" on such a test isn't indicative of anything in particular, because you'd need to look at the ratio between androgens (free test and DHT) and estrogen.
3) Again, once a week injections are a big red flag. This sort of injection pattern produce wild side effects because of the sudden, rapid rise in testosterone levels, followed by a crash to 50% of peak levels prior to next injection.
4) Studies indicate that any amount of aromatase inhibitor makes testosterone toxic to your brain and blood vessels. They should be avoided like the plague.

Generally speaking, if you are not committed to doing tons and tons of research on your own about TRT, I don't know that I would recommend it.

Here is a good book to start with, in addition to the excellent "More Plates More Dates" YouTube channnel:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/172677...bl_vppi_i0
02-16-2020 12:23 AM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #1281
RE: Testosterone injections
I'm pretty sure my PA has that book on his desk. I'll ask him about the aromatase issue you've mentioned, but so far all my lab work has been solid. What studies show that "any amount of aromatase inhibitor makes testosterone toxic to your brain and blood vessels?"

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2020 03:34 AM by MichaelWitcoff.)
02-16-2020 03:30 AM
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jeffreyjerpp Offline
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Post: #1282
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-16-2020 03:30 AM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  I'm pretty sure my PA has that book on his desk. I'll ask him about the aromatase issue you've mentioned, but so far all my lab work has been solid. What studies show that "any amount of aromatase inhibitor makes testosterone toxic to your brain and blood vessels?"

Watch the videos in full.

Any anabolic steroid besides testosterone is neurotoxic to varying degrees:

https://www.ergo-log.com/nandrotest.html

But testosterone itself is not, unless administered with an aromatase inhibitor.

Why is that?

Estrogen mediates androgens, and stops them from attacking blood vessel lining. It's a regulatory mechanism your body uses so that no matter how much testosterone you have, your circulatory, cardiac, and neurological systems are not damaged.

Remove the estrogen and you have disrupted that mechanism, and allowed your blood vessels to begin corroding.

This is why that TRT Doctor I posted earlier in the thread dropped dead suddenly, despite appearing to be ultra healthy for his age.
02-17-2020 11:02 AM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #1283
RE: Testosterone injections
Ok, but nothing you've posted thus far supports your theory that any amount of aromatase inhibitor makes testosterone neurotoxic. I don't care what nandrolone does because I'm never going to take it, and yes obviously having extremely low or high estrogen is bad for you - as with anything else in your body. But where is the evidence that using aromatase inhibitors in order to regulate aromatization, even if the Estradiol ends up normal afterwards, makes testosterone bad?

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
02-17-2020 03:27 PM
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jeffreyjerpp Offline
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Post: #1284
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-17-2020 03:27 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  Ok, but nothing you've posted thus far supports your theory that any amount of aromatase inhibitor makes testosterone neurotoxic. I don't care what nandrolone does because I'm never going to take it, and yes obviously having extremely low or high estrogen is bad for you - as with anything else in your body. But where is the evidence that using aromatase inhibitors in order to regulate aromatization, even if the Estradiol ends up normal afterwards, makes testosterone bad?

The first video I posted was literally a detailed breakdown of a study which showed that the introduction of any amount of aromatase inhibitor made testosterone neurotoxic. Not "my theory", but established science. Go to the 8 minute mark. As the other video explained, you have no way of knowing whether your estrogen is actually "normal" using the testing methodology of most TRT clinics. Those tests are wildly inaccurate, and the clinics don't know or care.

Damage to endothelial lining and brain cells are established side effects of almost all AAS, which estrogen luckily happens to mitigate. Indeed these affects are so pronounced as to induce premature alzheimers:

"Results of the first systematic brain imaging study conducted on long-term users of anabolic-androgenic steroids reveal significant brain structural and functional abnormalities, according to doctors at McLean Hospital."

mcleanhospital.org/news/brain-imaging-study-suggests-long-term-steroid-use-can-lead-significant-brain-structural-and

These are the kinds of changes you are introducing into your brain by using aromatase inhibitors and a once weekly injection schedule.

Enjoy.
02-18-2020 12:57 AM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #1285
RE: Testosterone injections
You keep posting about how toxic anabolic steroids are, when I keep saying I’m not on any. Not all testosterone is an anabolic steroid, so as mentioned in my last post, you have yet to prove your argument that any testosterone becomes toxic on any amount of aromatase inhibitor.

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
02-18-2020 04:04 PM
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jeffreyjerpp Offline
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Post: #1286
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-18-2020 04:04 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  You keep posting about how toxic anabolic steroids are, when I keep saying I’m not on any. Not all testosterone is an anabolic steroid, so as mentioned in my last post, you have yet to prove your argument that any testosterone becomes toxic on any amount of aromatase inhibitor.

"Some athletes take a form of steroids — known as anabolic-androgenic steroids or just anabolic steroids — to increase their muscle mass and strength. The main anabolic steroid hormone produced by your body is testosterone."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifes...t-20046134

Evidently you didn't know this, but yes, all testosterone is in fact an anabolic steroid. Perhaps you weren't aware exactly what you are being injected with each week. You might want to consider learning the very most basic things about this topic, given your confusion about what testosterone even is.

I'll assume you didn't watch the video yet, wherein scientists found that test subjects getting testosterone injections exhibited neurotoxicity with the introduction of any amount of aromatase inhibitors, even with relatively modest amounts of testosterone being injected.

Do whatever you want. I am posting at this point to help anyone else currently on TRT or considering it make a fully informed decision.
02-18-2020 10:53 PM
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Ice Offline
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Post: #1287
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-18-2020 10:53 PM)jeffreyjerpp Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 04:04 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  You keep posting about how toxic anabolic steroids are, when I keep saying I’m not on any. Not all testosterone is an anabolic steroid, so as mentioned in my last post, you have yet to prove your argument that any testosterone becomes toxic on any amount of aromatase inhibitor.

"Some athletes take a form of steroids — known as anabolic-androgenic steroids or just anabolic steroids — to increase their muscle mass and strength. The main anabolic steroid hormone produced by your body is testosterone."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifes...t-20046134

Evidently you didn't know this, but yes, all testosterone is in fact an anabolic steroid. Perhaps you weren't aware exactly what you are being injected with each week. You might want to consider learning the very most basic things about this topic, given your confusion about what testosterone even is.

I'll assume you didn't watch the video yet, wherein scientists found that test subjects getting testosterone injections exhibited neurotoxicity with the introduction of any amount of aromatase inhibitors, even with relatively modest amounts of testosterone being injected.

Do whatever you want. I am posting at this point to help anyone else currently on TRT or considering it make a fully informed decision.

Hey Jeffrey,

very helpful information. Thanks a lot for that. But just to clarify: you're saying that any type of aromatase inhibitors is harmful. But when taking testosterone, there can be side effects as a result of too much estrogen (like gyno), right? So what do you suggest doing in that case? Just stop talking testosterone, or decreasing the dosage?

(02-18-2020 10:53 PM)jeffreyjerpp Wrote:  Dividing your weekly dose into three equal shots, with Monday/Wednesday/Friday injections, should stabilize blood levels and prevent excess estrogen and DHT conversion. You will get the benefits you want (more free testosterone) without side effects, or a sudden rise in sex hormone binding globulin.

Or are you saying that side effects as a result of too much estrogen are basically impossible if you inject three times per week?
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2020 06:17 PM by Ice.)
02-19-2020 06:14 PM
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MichaelWitcoff Offline
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Post: #1288
RE: Testosterone injections
When these studies talk about “anabolic steroids” they are referring to synthetic compounds. That said, I did watch the video and found it interesting. I’m not convinced that any amount of AI is harmful since the units used in the video are not the units prescribed by a doctor and I have no clear picture of what that means in practical terms. Regardless, I do appreciate the information and will ask my PA when I see him tomorrow.

Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity and best-selling author of "On The Masons And Their Lies."
02-19-2020 08:48 PM
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jeffreyjerpp Offline
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Post: #1289
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-19-2020 06:14 PM)Ice Wrote:  Hey Jeffrey,

very helpful information. Thanks a lot for that. But just to clarify: you're saying that any type of aromatase inhibitors is harmful. But when taking testosterone, there can be side effects as a result of too much estrogen (like gyno), right? So what do you suggest doing in that case? Just stop talking testosterone, or decreasing the dosage?

(02-18-2020 10:53 PM)jeffreyjerpp Wrote:  Dividing your weekly dose into three equal shots, with Monday/Wednesday/Friday injections, should stabilize blood levels and prevent excess estrogen and DHT conversion. You will get the benefits you want (more free testosterone) without side effects, or a sudden rise in sex hormone binding globulin.

Or are you saying that side effects as a result of too much estrogen are basically impossible if you inject three times per week?

Happy to help. I don't mean to sound abrasive, but the topic is complex, and I (along with most men) didn't know as much as I should before using testosterone. Sadly we cannot really trust TRT clinics or mainstream doctors, either.

I used to get HORRIBLE androgenic side effects from injecting testosterone. Meaning, my body converted the free testosterone into DHT instead of estrogen. I lost all my head hair, great chest hair, got really bad back acne, etc.

Even dividing my shots to twice a week and taking saw palmetto and stinging nettle root didn't completely fix the problem.

Only when I went from two injections per week, to three per week, was it solved.

Why is this? Your body releases 5AR and Aromatase enzyme in response to the total change in testosterone levels. Bigger change=more conversion into things you do not want.

If you are getting gyno, obviously you need to use a small amount of AI until the symptoms stop. Then, consider dividing the dosage into smaller and more frequent shots, or reducing your overall total test injected.

For perspective, I take 200 mg per week, which is a lot, I consider 160 mg/week to be the top of true TRT range in most cases. Dan Bilzerian takes 140 mg per week, as an example.
02-20-2020 12:38 PM
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Post: #1290
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-20-2020 12:38 PM)jeffreyjerpp Wrote:  Happy to help. I don't mean to sound abrasive, but the topic is complex, and I (along with most men) didn't know as much as I should before using testosterone. Sadly we cannot really trust TRT clinics or mainstream doctors, either.

I used to get HORRIBLE androgenic side effects from injecting testosterone. Meaning, my body converted the free testosterone into DHT instead of estrogen. I lost all my head hair, great chest hair, got really bad back acne, etc.

Even dividing my shots to twice a week and taking saw palmetto and stinging nettle root didn't completely fix the problem.

Only when I went from two injections per week, to three per week, was it solved.

Why is this? Your body releases 5AR and Aromatase enzyme in response to the total change in testosterone levels. Bigger change=more conversion into things you do not want.

If you are getting gyno, obviously you need to use a small amount of AI until the symptoms stop. Then, consider dividing the dosage into smaller and more frequent shots, or reducing your overall total test injected.

For perspective, I take 200 mg per week, which is a lot, I consider 160 mg/week to be the top of true TRT range in most cases. Dan Bilzerian takes 140 mg per week, as an example.

Thanks a lot Jeffrey, really very helpful.

One question about DHT: so testosterone is converted either into estrogen or DHT? Both happens if the total change in testosterone levels is too big? Is there some kind of ratio in terms of how much estrogen vs. DHT is produced? Or is this random?

So to recap: If the levels of estrogen are too high and cause side-effects, they can be mitigated by small doses of AI until the symptoms stop. And then the testosterone shots can be divided into smaller/more frequent shots. But what about DHT? If side effects occur (like hair loss), what can be done? Apart from taking smaller/more frequent shots? Do small doses of AI also mitigate DHT side effects?
(This post was last modified: 02-20-2020 06:08 PM by Ice.)
02-20-2020 06:07 PM
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BeardedMastodon Offline
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Post: #1291
RE: Testosterone injections
Hi All,

I did TRT after test lvls of 400 for 5 months. My testosterone levels shot up to 1700 at the end... I had to take AIs due to estrogen effects. In fact, I had such an issue with estrogen even with the AIs that I had to stop...

I noticed at the highest levels my sex drive was actually lowered, but clarity of thinking was great.

I have been off for 2 months but still have extremely low sex drive... any alternatives other than. Clomid and TRT
02-22-2020 02:34 AM
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Emancipator Offline
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Post: #1292
RE: Testosterone injections
Estrogen also has the benefits of being cardio protective and helping with Insulin resistance^^^
I think it gets a bit too much hate, AIs are overused in Blasts (IMO), most useless advice I got was regarding AIs.
Even purely basing it on psychological effects, low E is 10x worse than high E
I can't imagine the effect it has if ran longterm alongside TRT.

There's a reason why women going into a post-menopausal state end up facing a lot more health risks.

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02-23-2020 08:57 PM
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WomenLuvDeez Offline
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Post: #1293
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-20-2020 06:07 PM)Ice Wrote:  
(02-20-2020 12:38 PM)jeffreyjerpp Wrote:  Happy to help. I don't mean to sound abrasive, but the topic is complex, and I (along with most men) didn't know as much as I should before using testosterone. Sadly we cannot really trust TRT clinics or mainstream doctors, either.

I used to get HORRIBLE androgenic side effects from injecting testosterone. Meaning, my body converted the free testosterone into DHT instead of estrogen. I lost all my head hair, great chest hair, got really bad back acne, etc.

Even dividing my shots to twice a week and taking saw palmetto and stinging nettle root didn't completely fix the problem.

Only when I went from two injections per week, to three per week, was it solved.

Why is this? Your body releases 5AR and Aromatase enzyme in response to the total change in testosterone levels. Bigger change=more conversion into things you do not want.

If you are getting gyno, obviously you need to use a small amount of AI until the symptoms stop. Then, consider dividing the dosage into smaller and more frequent shots, or reducing your overall total test injected.

For perspective, I take 200 mg per week, which is a lot, I consider 160 mg/week to be the top of true TRT range in most cases. Dan Bilzerian takes 140 mg per week, as an example.

Thanks a lot Jeffrey, really very helpful.

One question about DHT: so testosterone is converted either into estrogen or DHT? Both happens if the total change in testosterone levels is too big? Is there some kind of ratio in terms of how much estrogen vs. DHT is produced? Or is this random?

So to recap: If the levels of estrogen are too high and cause side-effects, they can be mitigated by small doses of AI until the symptoms stop. And then the testosterone shots can be divided into smaller/more frequent shots. But what about DHT? If side effects occur (like hair loss), what can be done? Apart from taking smaller/more frequent shots? Do small doses of AI also mitigate DHT side effects?

If I was losing hair I'd run some finasteride.

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02-25-2020 09:08 PM
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babygirlhesaloner Offline
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Post: #1294
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-19-2020 06:14 PM)Ice Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 10:53 PM)jeffreyjerpp Wrote:  
(02-18-2020 04:04 PM)MichaelWitcoff Wrote:  You keep posting about how toxic anabolic steroids are, when I keep saying I’m not on any. Not all testosterone is an anabolic steroid, so as mentioned in my last post, you have yet to prove your argument that any testosterone becomes toxic on any amount of aromatase inhibitor.

"Some athletes take a form of steroids — known as anabolic-androgenic steroids or just anabolic steroids — to increase their muscle mass and strength. The main anabolic steroid hormone produced by your body is testosterone."

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifes...t-20046134

Evidently you didn't know this, but yes, all testosterone is in fact an anabolic steroid. Perhaps you weren't aware exactly what you are being injected with each week. You might want to consider learning the very most basic things about this topic, given your confusion about what testosterone even is.

I'll assume you didn't watch the video yet, wherein scientists found that test subjects getting testosterone injections exhibited neurotoxicity with the introduction of any amount of aromatase inhibitors, even with relatively modest amounts of testosterone being injected.

Do whatever you want. I am posting at this point to help anyone else currently on TRT or considering it make a fully informed decision.

Hey Jeffrey,

very helpful information. Thanks a lot for that. But just to clarify: you're saying that any type of aromatase inhibitors is harmful. But when taking testosterone, there can be side effects as a result of too much estrogen (like gyno), right? So what do you suggest doing in that case? Just stop talking testosterone, or decreasing the dosage?

(02-18-2020 10:53 PM)jeffreyjerpp Wrote:  Dividing your weekly dose into three equal shots, with Monday/Wednesday/Friday injections, should stabilize blood levels and prevent excess estrogen and DHT conversion. You will get the benefits you want (more free testosterone) without side effects, or a sudden rise in sex hormone binding globulin.

Or are you saying that side effects as a result of too much estrogen are basically impossible if you inject three times per week?

One, use the minimum effective dosage to manage your symptoms of Low T. Two, more frequent injections every day or every other day.
03-05-2020 08:53 AM
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Post: #1295
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-22-2020 02:34 AM)BeardedMastodon Wrote:  Hi All,

I did TRT after test lvls of 400 for 5 months. My testosterone levels shot up to 1700 at the end... I had to take AIs due to estrogen effects. In fact, I had such an issue with estrogen even with the AIs that I had to stop...

I noticed at the highest levels my sex drive was actually lowered, but clarity of thinking was great.

I have been off for 2 months but still have extremely low sex drive... any alternatives other than. Clomid and TRT

If you're going to ask for advice give more information. How much testosterone were you on per week? What was the ester? How frequent were the injections? Were you taking HCG and if so what dosage? Many people report HCG can be beneficial in restoring libido.
(This post was last modified: 03-05-2020 08:56 AM by babygirlhesaloner.)
03-05-2020 08:55 AM
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Emancipator Offline
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Post: #1296
RE: Testosterone injections
Prolectin should also be tested especially in the case of libido

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03-07-2020 06:47 AM
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jeffreyjerpp Offline
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Post: #1297
RE: Testosterone injections
(02-20-2020 06:07 PM)Ice Wrote:  
(02-20-2020 12:38 PM)jeffreyjerpp Wrote:  Happy to help. I don't mean to sound abrasive, but the topic is complex, and I (along with most men) didn't know as much as I should before using testosterone. Sadly we cannot really trust TRT clinics or mainstream doctors, either.

I used to get HORRIBLE androgenic side effects from injecting testosterone. Meaning, my body converted the free testosterone into DHT instead of estrogen. I lost all my head hair, great chest hair, got really bad back acne, etc.

Even dividing my shots to twice a week and taking saw palmetto and stinging nettle root didn't completely fix the problem.

Only when I went from two injections per week, to three per week, was it solved.

Why is this? Your body releases 5AR and Aromatase enzyme in response to the total change in testosterone levels. Bigger change=more conversion into things you do not want.

If you are getting gyno, obviously you need to use a small amount of AI until the symptoms stop. Then, consider dividing the dosage into smaller and more frequent shots, or reducing your overall total test injected.

For perspective, I take 200 mg per week, which is a lot, I consider 160 mg/week to be the top of true TRT range in most cases. Dan Bilzerian takes 140 mg per week, as an example.

Thanks a lot Jeffrey, really very helpful.

One question about DHT: so testosterone is converted either into estrogen or DHT? Both happens if the total change in testosterone levels is too big? Is there some kind of ratio in terms of how much estrogen vs. DHT is produced? Or is this random?

So to recap: If the levels of estrogen are too high and cause side-effects, they can be mitigated by small doses of AI until the symptoms stop. And then the testosterone shots can be divided into smaller/more frequent shots. But what about DHT? If side effects occur (like hair loss), what can be done? Apart from taking smaller/more frequent shots? Do small doses of AI also mitigate DHT side effects?

The smaller and more frequent shots will greatly reduce DHT conversion. In fact, my libido decreased dramatically when I switched from once weekly to thrice weekly injection, because the DHT drop was so significant.

Other things you can take to stop the 5AR enzyme from converting test into DHT:

-Saw palmetto
-Stinging nettle root
-Finasteride and dutasteride
03-09-2020 12:29 AM
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